David Susskind 0:01
Do you see an appreciable difference between old men after 60? Let's say, and younger men, given that the younger man can't afford prostitutes of your cost, to the extent that you see younger men, are they better? Worse, the same as the older men,
"Melinda" (prostitute) 0:21
the older men seem to be more considerate. They've made their mark in the world, they've gotten over themselves, they know who they are, where they've been, and where they're going. The younger men are still trying to prove themselves, they have more insecurities, they have more hang ups, the older gentlemen are a lot more comfortable. They're much more relaxed, and they have more of an attitude of they want to have a good time. The younger fellas tend to have more hang ups in the older fellas do
"Nina" (prostitute) 0:56
sure I would not want to greet six men a day, my age that we're interested in, you know, they're 25 or 27, or whatever. 30. And they're very young, macho, energetic and very sexual. I'm not interested them coming in and showing me all their tricks. I'm not interested in interested in them coming in there. And having sex with me for a full hour and saying, Well, geez, I still have 30 More seconds left. Let me continue. You know, I haven't reached my fifth orgasm. I'm not interested. What
David Susskind 1:25
Are there such men?
"Nina" (prostitute) 1:28
I can't rarely. I mean, really rarely. Do you want to scale?
"Catherine" (prostitute) 1:36
What I don't like and I won't see a gentleman who has its attitude. That's important. You know, for me, if somebody comes in and says, Okay, you know, whore. What are you gonna? What are you going to give me for $100 or something? I'll tell the man that I'm not comfortable. I don't think this will work. And I'll ask him to leave. I am not about to subject myself to such abuse. The people that I see are very considerate, very kind, loving and warm. And I don't see those kinds of people.
"Nina" (prostitute) 2:10
And if you do see them if they do want three or four releases fine. So they usually tell you upfront, hey, I have an incredibly high sexual level. Can you fulfill it or not? Yes, no. That's it. And goodbye. I don't waste time. That's all. Like for our particular situation, we charge one price. Here's the price here's we offer, do you want it yes or no goodbye. And you know, if you're on the street or something, then that's a whole different thing, which I'd like the gentleman who paid $12 an hour. First of all, I myself would not even lay my naked body or anything else done close body down in a place that was $12 an hour period. That's my outlook on it. But if someone just wants to release, yes, I
David Susskind 2:48
Nina, if a man wanted a triple release, if he wanted oral sex if he wanted missionary sex. And if he wanted a fantasy fulfilled, and he could accomplish it all within 60 minutes, would you go along with that?
"Nina" (prostitute) 3:02
If he knew his body that well and knew that he could be completed? Yes, sure. Because it really doesn't happen that often. So what is the big deal of if? Four times a year man can climax three or maybe four times which I don't think I've ever seen anyone? 21 year old guy who could climax four times in an hour less than
David Susskind 3:23
"Nina" (prostitute) 3:25
They're a bit more rare, though. He was. But that four times was induced with heavy heavy fantasies in involvement session, I mean, heavy fantasy. So that's
David Susskind 3:39
What's a heavy fantasy?
"Nina" (prostitute) 3:41
A heavy fantasy might be a man who requires three to four, three quart enemas per hour.
David Susskind 3:49
"Nina" (prostitute) 3:51
You wanted it, I gave it to you.
David Susskind 3:54
to do most men? You've not my question, right? Do most men that come to you come from the condition of marriage. In other words, they're not single men, because there's a lot of sex out there in the single world
"Melinda" (prostitute) 4:08
75% of my clientele is married. 25% is single, approximately
David Susskind 4:14
same thing for you
"Melinda" (prostitute) 4:16
"Nina" (prostitute) 4:16
David Susskind 4:18
And their major complaint in their marriage is that it's too boring. Or it's too, there may be one dimensional
"Melinda" (prostitute) 4:25
Too one dimensional that's a good way to describe it. There may be sexual activities they would like to indulge in that their wives would not like to indulge in
David Susskind 4:33
Are there fantasies or sexual activities that you forbid, you will have no part of
"Melinda" (prostitute) 4:38
I will not get involved with any sort of domination
David Susskind 4:42
"Melinda" (prostitute) 4:43
David Susskind 4:43
"Melinda" (prostitute) 4:44
David Susskind 4:45
"Catherine" (prostitute) 4:45
I don't I don't know either. I mean, if somebody wants, whatever, An emena I mean, I don't. That's not my clientele.
David Susskind 4:51
Do you have any latent fear of violence. I mean, these are strangers. Maybe though you don't care because you will for the money. participating, but
"Nina" (prostitute) 5:00
I will participate. Not I won't participate in violence per se. I'm not going to participate in anything that hurts me, or that hurt someone if someone has a fantasy. If you have a fantasy of having your nipples pinched, I'm not going to bite them off. I'm not going to put a pin in them for Christ's sakes. I'm going to just do what you said. I'm not going to carry anyone's fantasy farther than it is if whether being gardeners or what have you. Of course, there's no of course there's crime, I do a tremendous amount of alcohols I do a tremendous amount of hotel work. Yes, there is That danger of finding a lunatic when I when a criminal a bank robber can afford $1,000 Day suite at a very reputable hotel. And I do serve as only the reputable hotels and in New York City. Fine, but there is that risk of a man just going to kill me for no other reason than he just doesn't like my looks or whatever reason. But so what I could be killed crossing the street tomorrow. So why am I going to worry about these things?
"Melinda" (prostitute) 5:58
After a while you hone your intuition to a very, very fine point. And if I'm not comfortable with someone when they walk in the door, I'll ask them to leave also. In addition to which I have a very large trained German Shepherd, who will go on command, and fortunately, I have never, ever had to use him.
David Susskind 6:20
Then you got a husband and the next room course. I mean, you could always say Tom. Well, that is when you come in.
"Melinda" (prostitute) 6:26
That isn't the key word. But yes, I do have a key word. Of course, I'd call the police immediately if I had a problem. Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. I'm not going to let myself get there.
David Susskind 6:34
You say that the secret of good sex is not a loving companionship caring relationship. The secret of good sex is just good sex.
"Melinda" (prostitute) 6:42
David Susskind 6:43
Without any emotional basis at all.
"Nina" (prostitute) 6:46
in most cases, yes. Yes.
David Susskind 6:49
have you ever fallen in love with a client.
"Melinda" (prostitute) 6:51
No, no. I become very attached to clients insofar as I like them very, very, very much and feel very close to them to fall in love. No,
David Susskind 7:01
Do you feel you've gotten an equal break tonight. I mean, have you answered every thing you wanted to with respect to the show on John's?
"Catherine" (prostitute) 7:09
Pretty much I just
David Susskind 7:11
should John's be prosecuted
"Melinda" (prostitute) 7:13
if they're going to prostitute the prostitutes yes
David Susskind 7:17
If they prosecute prostitutes, they should prosecute John.
"Melinda" (prostitute) 7:21
David Susskind 7:23
"Nina" (prostitute) 7:23
Or vice versa.
David Susskind 7:24
Do you feel that you got equal time and a fair shake tonight?
"Melinda" (prostitute) 7:28
Pretty much so Yes.
"Nina" (prostitute) 7:29
Very much so Yes.
David Susskind 7:29
Anything else you want to say?
"Nina" (prostitute) 7:30
I know that I just I'm not here for myself to to fight for prostitution to be legalized. I'm just here for it to be possibly criminal to say that it's not that we're also to say that prostitution is not bad. It's that I am not a loser. I have been to college, we have all been to college. Many, many women have been to college, many women are have doctorates. So and also our clientele are not losers, whether they be women on the streets. I know many women streets who are very well educated and pick up a very upper echelon clientele. So they're not losers by any social standard.
David Susskind 8:09
But you're being hookers can't be the object of a fine education. I mean, you were trained to be an accountant
"Nina" (prostitute) 8:16
sure we have a master's degree in homan nature, I can assure you.
David Susskind 8:19
Masters degree in human nature
"Catherine" (prostitute) 8:21
I've always loved psychology, one of the things I wanted to maybe get into would be social work. The problem was I said, Why deal with this negative aspect of people? You know, I mean, I'm not gonna be able to help these people or do anything that I want to do you know what I mean, that don't have any money, the poor the ghetto. I mean, I said, there's gonna depress me. So what I did is I got involved with sales jobs or people oriented jobs. I've always been people oriented. And this is no different than that. This is a it's a service. It's a business.
David Susskind 8:52
But you're using prostitution as a social instrument to better the human race.
"Nina" (prostitute) 9:02
In many situations, you have to give to someone no matter who it is you yourself. You have to answer to someone. I have to answer to someone you have to answer to somebody. It doesn't matter who it is, whether it's Uncle Sam, no matter who you have to do some sort of prostituting one way or the other. We do it in a sexual way. Weprostitute ourselves sexually. You may not
David Susskind 9:24
Would you want your daughters to be prostitutes.
"Nina" (prostitute) 9:26
Well, if she did I tell you I would definitely make sure she's doing it the right way. If that was her decision, I was not able to talk her out of it and that she was just formed. That's her decision. Fine. Well, let me tell you something, she better be doing it the right way. And she better be doing it is as good as I have a better that's I would just lend her help. My parents are very well educated.
David Susskind 9:48
Do They know what you do.
"Nina" (prostitute) 9:49
I would think yes,
David Susskind 9:50
the answer is no
"Nina" (prostitute) 9:53
I would think they do
David Susskind 9:53
your parents know?
"Catherine" (prostitute) 9:54
David Susskind 9:55
Your parents know
"Melinda" (prostitute) 9:56
David Susskind 9:57
"Catherine" (prostitute) 9:59
Simply because it is illegal simply because prostitution has been kind of dropped all together prostitution is bad it's ugly. It's dirty.
"Nina" (prostitute) 10:09
They always told me Honey Don't give it away make him pay for it if they're gonna you know and he let me tell you
David Susskind 10:16
Yeah but he was talking about a good marriage, he wasn't thinking a good hooking?
"Nina" (prostitute) 10:19
How do you know?
David Susskind 10:20
Cause Daddy's from Alabama?
"Nina" (prostitute) 10:22
Daddy is very well educated and Daddy knows what in the heck he's talking about.
David Susskind 10:26
Daddy will break down.
"Nina" (prostitute) 10:28
Daddy says Don't be a whore don't slut yourself around. I mean, you know, get you know I'm doing I am single, I'm doing the same thing that the acceptable girls are doing. The only thing is the passing of the dollar. That's it. In my opinion.
"Melinda" (prostitute) 10:39
They get paid to dinner in the theater. We paid in cash.
"Nina" (prostitute) 10:43
I have been to these sexual retreats and what have you had been the sexual Hangouts these discoteques and things where they do allow sex sexual activity going on. I have seen women my age or any age or anything, having sex are five and six and 10 men for nothing, but they're fine. They're very acceptable.
David Susskind 11:01
But nobody says they're fine. They're sick. Those people
"Catherine" (prostitute) 11:03
listen. No, no. I was I was married for eight years. When I got divorced. I went through withdrawal almost from I needed somebody to be with the warm a touch anything. What I did is I went out bars on Friday and Saturday nights in search of somebody to be with I not necessarily Well, the sex but to be naked to be held in bed. And I went and gave it away. I think I had more intercourse over those couple of years. Looking for a companion, some company some affection. I gave it away for free. Now, I do it, but I'm getting paid for it.
"Nina" (prostitute) 11:45
That's the only difference the only thing
David Susskind 11:48
that's what your daddy talking talked about sloughing around. Don't you see you come to the ultimate Sluttery.
"Nina" (prostitute) 11:54
It's not the ultimate Slattery.
David Susskind 11:56
Yeah, because you're selling it
"Nina" (prostitute) 12:00
and selling it.
David Susskind 12:02
"Nina" (prostitute) 12:02
well, I am selling it. But
David Susskind 12:06
at an outrageous price
"Nina" (prostitute) 12:07
Everyone sells herself whether it be an outrageous price or whether it be a cheap price, it doesn't matter that your prerogative. I set my standards. And I know like the man who goes to the $12 place to have a sexual release. Those women set the price at $12. And those women let me tell you don't even get $12 they get five or $6 at a 50 or 60% of the cut off of that. $12. So the girl who prostitute herself for $5 is no different from me who prostitute myself for $100 an hour.
David Susskind 12:36
No one is paying just 5 dollars. Pakistan is $5
"Melinda" (prostitute) 12:40
Oh, no, no, no, you can go to a $10 massage parlor down in the village. And that girl gets $5 You're only there 10 minutes only there 10 minutes and all you get is a hand job
David Susskind 12:53
is there. Is there a look of stupidity about him? Or?
"Nina" (prostitute) 12:57
No, of course not. What if you walked into a place where there be a look of stupidity about you? I mean, what if you just went out of curiosity? If you're a newscaster? Is there a look of stupidity about you? When you walk in
"Melinda" (prostitute) 13:07
Your hair wouldn't fall out. You wouldn't get pimples. You wouldn't get hair on the palms of your hand.
David Susskind 13:13
You wouldn't walk with a limp and you wouldn't go blind
"Melinda" (prostitute) 13:15
wouldn't have a big red a on your forehead. Nobody would know
"Nina" (prostitute) 13:17
And also another thing I'd like to bring out which it reminds me of your last John hour all women are not pimped out. You said that three times in your last interview. If all women are pimped out, you said, Aren't you aware these women are pimped out quote unquote, aren't you don't you know, these women are pimped out you said, let me ask you something. How do you know? If you know all these women are pimped out? Tell me because I don't know what
David Susskind 13:42
you mean under the control of pimps
"Nina" (prostitute) 13:44
Under the control of pimps. I've never even met a pimp.
David Susskind 13:47
Not women operating out of their apartments the way you do.
"Nina" (prostitute) 13:51
I've operated on the street
David Susskind 13:52
You've operated on the streets
"Nina" (prostitute) 13:52
sure it doesn't matter on Park Avenue, right by the reputable hotels, right in the center of town. What is the matter? I have? No I don't have a pinp. Do you see any big man around and as you as you think everybody thinks a pimp is a big black man or anyone. I don't even have a boyfriend or anybody. So there's nobody around me.
David Susskind 14:11
You're a tribute to American capitalism.
"Nina" (prostitute) 14:17
Women do women. There are women like ourselves who just want to do our own thing. It doesn't matter who just want to have a career and not be hassled for it. And there's nothing the matter with us. And there's nothing the matter with a man who patronize us. And we are not owned and we are not slaves. You know and where I came from, the masters are not black. So I don't even think of Pimps in this way them end up in north all of a sudden it's all turned around the masters of pimps and pimps are black down south. It's the masters of whiten the slaves are black. So I don't even think of these. I never met a pimp. I have never met a pimp. I did. I didn't know it. Okay, so all these women are not pimped out whether they're on the street. I've met some gorgeous women on the street. And of course they're not pimps. I don't know so often, and they're very well educated. Some women prefer to work on the street. It's something we're done in life because of the stuff that we're going through to, to be talking to a man for an hour. I know a lot of very well educated women that can't waste their time. You know, they don't want to know anything about them. And vice versa. If a man is on his lunch hour for 15 20 minutes, half an hour, he doesn't want to know, he doesn't want to tell you all his problems. He doesn't want to know all your problems or whatever
David Susskind 15:26
your frequently a man's lunch
"Nina" (prostitute) 15:31
If that be the occasion, yes
David Susskind 15:31
It's better than a sandwich I guess
"Nina" (prostitute) 15:31
It Absolutely is.
David Susskind 15:36
Better than a ham and cheese at your desk.
"Melinda" (prostitute) 15:39
"Nina" (prostitute) 15:39
David Susskind 15:40
Anyway, I hope you're satisfied that you got your reply, John.
"Nina" (prostitute) 15:44
Sure Yes. Thank you very much.
"Melinda" (prostitute) 15:45
David Susskind 15:46
I don't really quite understand your psyches.
"Nina" (prostitute) 15:51
And vice versa. We don't understand yours.
David Susskind 15:54
Well, that's America. You've been terrific guests. You've been forthcoming. And you've been quite candid. And thank you very much. And I hope you enjoyed it. We'll be back with more show.
PART 1: "PROSTITUTES TELL ALL"
WITH "NINA", "CATHERINE", & "MELINDA"
PROSTITUTES DISCUSS THEIR TRADE, THEIR BUISNESS, THEIR CLIENTS AND THEIR JOBS. KINKY SEX & FANTASIES DISCUSSED. SEX INDUSTRY. WOMEN WITH IDENTITY DISGUISED, SITTING IN SHADOWS.
(HF-YTV, DECEMBER 2018)
CUT TO BREAK
SLATE CARD - COUNTDOWN CLOCK
PART 2: "WOMEN AGAINST PORNOGRAPHY"
WITH DOLORES ALEXANDER, JANE MCHUGH, FRANCES PATAI, & BARBARA MEHRHOF
FIGHT PORNOGRAPHY & HOW IT PORTRAYS WOMEN. WOMEN ACTIVIST GROUP BATTLING PORNOGRAPHY IN FILMS, MAGAZINES, ADVERTISING, RECORD ALBUMS. PORNO INDUSTRY UNDER ATTACK. FEMINISTS.
(CLIP AT 01:17:49 POSTED TO YOUTUBE COMP REEL "FEMINISTS" MAY 7, 2018)
(HF-YTV, DECEMBER 2018)
David Susskind 16:35
Some people think pornography is harmless, but my next guests believe it's dangerous and that it threatens and degrades women. Please meet them now. First, a journalist to Dolores Alexander helped organize and is now coordinator of women against pornography. Jane McHugh is a homemaker from New Jersey. Mrs. McHugh recently led a successful fight to get a sex shop out of her neighborhood. Frances Patai is an activist and organizer for women against pornography, a college lecturer and writer. She is CO editor of books on rape and child abuse. Barbara Mahrhof is a graduate student in anthropology and staff organizer of women against pornography. What has got you women? So exercise? I mean, we've got a new age of permissiveness. I guess pornography is here, some creepy people like it, why not let them have their ridiculous appetite?
Jane McHugh 17:36
I think they can have it I don't object to them having it at all. What I object to is the places that these places are springing up in New Jersey and in New York
David Susskind 17:47
all over the country
Jane McHugh 17:48
over the country
Barbara Mehrhof 17:49
much further than that, because I am disturbed about the pervasiveness of pornography and its widespread availability. And the reason why I'm disturbed is the things that pornography says about women, and the things it says about the relationships between men and women
David Susskind 18:07
Are you equally exercised by what pornography says about men? Because there are male nude books, there are books showing men being put upon sexually and so forth
Barbara Mehrhof 18:18
Well as a member of women against pornography, which I was have been a member for, for several months now. And I know my knowledge of pornography. I know, I was always disturbed by it as a woman, because I know it said very destructive things about me. But I didn't really know about the content of it. And one of the things we do in women against pornography is we go actually go into the shops in the Time Square area, and
David Susskind 18:41
it's all over the country. Don't make it New York
Barbara Mehrhof 18:43
No it's not just New York.
David Susskind 18:45
That's right. It's Boston.
Barbara Mehrhof 18:46
But what my point is that most of pornography is saying something about women. Yes, there are magazines geared toward men, about men. But I would say 95% of it is about women. It's geared toward heterosexual men, and it says something about women.
Frances Patai 19:02
And what it says about women is a series of lies. First of all, in pornography. women's sexuality is defined by men. And we believe that by depicting women, either graphically or in pictures, as create women as creatures who enjoy being humiliated, who enjoy being bound, whipped, beaten, tortured, raped, who enjoy being victims, this is dangerous. It both shapes and reflect a climate which legitimizes violence against women who legitimize his rape. And pornography, as far as we're concerned, has nothing to do with sex qua sex. Pornography has to do with power relationships and power imbalances. It has a victim that namely the woman and a victimizer and aggressor the man but it does something more by creeping into the main screen stream or I should say not creeping a galloping into the main stream. There's some of the slides and ads that you You will see later on in the program.
David Susskind 19:05
These are your ads and slides.
Frances Patai 20:02
These are slides from the mainstream there are women against pornography slides, but this gets the oppressor off the hook. It gets the person who is inflicting pain and humiliation and a power trip on the powerless. It gets that powerful person off the hook because it says it's a rationalization. It says in effect. There's nothing wrong with raping women. There's nothing wrong with an oppressor oppressing someone else. Because look, women enjoy, because you will see that these pornographic images show women in very glamorized positions, enjoying being beaten and whipped and raped but the message that comes across is women enjoy rape and assault women invited nay women deserve it and it perpetuates myth that women are Masochist
David Susskind 20:54
Okay. Let me reply that most pornography as I understand it is not the demonstration of sexual violence. It is the demonstration of explicit sex, a hustler play girl, gayity, all those magazines, women with big breasts, and women exposing their vaginas.
Barbara Mehrhof 21:18
Well, is that explicit sex or explicitly showing the human female
David Susskind 21:23
What say you, Francis a Dolores? Yes, yes. I mean, that's most of pornography is not whips and chains. Most of pornography is nudity and exposure of genitalia,
Dolores Alexander 21:35
but it still has to do with power.
David Susskind 21:36
Why is have to do with power?
Dolores Alexander 21:37
Because? Because well because we're we're arranged by a photographer where we're spreadeagled were stripped. No man, there's a taboo against there's a taboo in this culture against male nudity, because men understand that to take your clothes off makes you vulnerable. It puts you in a different place.
David Susskind 21:55
There is no force applied in the photographic sessions of these women who consent to do it. We now have a famous actress on television, and we see that 10 years ago, or agents submitted nude photographs of her to Playboy magazine, which they've chosen to publish now. There was no force applied
Jane McHugh 22:14
No, but a nude photograph of a woman does not make it pornographic.
David Susskind 22:18
What makes it pornographic?
Jane McHugh 22:18
a woman's body is not something that is pornographic
David Susskind 22:21
if her legs are spread, and she is playing with herself is that pornographic?
Jane McHugh 22:25
That's true, but some of the magazines the one that you were referring to I don't believe she was doing anything like
David Susskind 22:30
No, I'm not talking about that woman in that magazine. But there are many magazines today, in which there's a clear shot of the vagina and the woman is playing with herself or doing something. Is that pornography?
Jane McHugh 22:45
well, to some people yes.
David Susskind 22:47
Alright now the woman submitted to that photograph of her own free will
Barbara Mehrhof 22:50
Well, wait a second, I just want to say there are two things I want to say. Number one, I think that a lot of things that you are talking about, that the the aim is to degrade and humiliate. And that's number one. Well, the idea is that when men these pictures are
David Susskind 23:04
How do you know the photographer wasn't a woman? And how do you know that women?
Barbara Mehrhof 23:09
Well, in most cases, the pornography industry is controlled by men
David Susskind 23:12
if it were controlled by women would it be accepted? market?
Barbara Mehrhof 23:14
Well, I think if Wait a second, the market for pornography is men. Number two, I just want to go back to what you were saying before about lack the lack of violence. And you mentioned several magazines. It simply isn't true that there isn't violence or implicit or explicit violence in most pornography magazines. In fact, there is
David Susskind 23:34
Barbara Mehrhof 23:34
there's a lot of it, you know, and there are a whole genre of pornography. There's bondage magazines, their slave magazines, magazines with chains and whips,
Frances Patai 23:43
kiddie porn, Nazi porn, racial porn. And another element of pornography, which we shall sleep see in our slides is the depersonalization of women, women's bodies, chopped up so that you're not dealing with the total person, you are dealing with a part of behind a breast. This this is fetishism
David Susskind 24:06
It's selected erotica, isn't it?
Frances Patai 24:08
right? No, it's not.
David Susskind 24:09
If a photographer choose to deal with The breasts that's a selective artistic choice
Frances Patai 24:13
You have to take into consideration both the intent and the content and the context. And part of what we're talking about when we say that pornography has to do with violent images, images which depict women as enjoying being beaten, whipped, lay deserving it. This perpetuates myths against women, it perpetuates misogynistic lies about women,
David Susskind 24:35
Frances Patai and other guests. We are going to pause for a moment when we come back. We're going to have a look at your slides, the ones you've chosen to show, and then we'll comment on them. We'll be right back.
CUT TO BREAK
SLATE CARD - COUNTDOWN CLOCK
INTERVIEW RESUMES. SUSSKIND SHOWS IMAGES THE GUESTS HAVE BROUGHT AND THEY DISCUSS THEIR OBJECTIONS TO THEM:
David Susskind 25:10
We're going to see some slides now that our guests objective very strangerisly so let's have the first one cover of Hustler magazine, woman whole body up to her derriere is in a meat grinder.
Dolores Alexander 25:23
You'll see that there's the FDA stamp of approval or something like that in the lower right hand corner and it says Larry Flynt says we will no longer hang women up like pieces of meat. But in fact, if we were able to show you what the inside spread looked like, women are literally made into pieces of meat. One of the spread inside shows a woman totally naked on a hamburger bun, spread with ketchup implicit violence now it looks like blood. You know, there's a kind of implicit violence and she's spreadeagled on this hamburger bun. The next picture is a picture of let's epic picture to know if the other picture in the inside spread is a woman as a breast of chicken and her legs have been cut off in order to make this more authentic. And she spread with tomatoes, tomato sauce in order to make it like chicken cacciatore on a bed of chicken on a bed of spaghetti. That that's, you know you laugh,
David Susskind 26:17
Dolores Alexander 26:18
It's too bitter for us to take don't don't ask me to approve of that.
David Susskind 26:22
It's tasteless, it's ugly and
Frances Patai 26:24
I'ts more than tasteless.
Barbara Mehrhof 26:25
Do you know what the circulation is of Hustler magazine.
David Susskind 26:28
I have no idea
Barbara Mehrhof 26:28
it's 2 million a month
David Susskind 26:31
2 million sickies.
Barbara Mehrhof 26:32
It's not 2 million sickies that magazines goes into a lot of homes. A lot of other people see it cannot see the thing that you're noe
David Susskind 26:39
Obviously anybody reading Hustler on a regular basis is a sicky.
Barbara Mehrhof 26:41
what you're not granting to us is that pornography is increasingly sociable, socially acceptable. It's not just something that marginal men do. or look at. or read
Dolores Alexander 26:53
It's seen as sexually liberating. That's the unfortunate thing. People now see pornography as a sexually liberating thing
David Susskind 27:01
Can we look at another slide
Frances Patai 27:02
It's chic. It's trendy.
David Susskind 27:04
Okay, we're gonna look at another slide of yours. What is this?
Barbara Mehrhof 27:08
.Oh, well, that's not quite right. The cover of a record album,
David Susskind 27:13
a cover of a record album, man and woman making love. Is it?
Barbara Mehrhof 27:15
I'ts the Ohio players and it's called climax
David Susskind 27:20
simply showed a sexual instant
Dolores Alexander 27:25
You notice that she is stabbing him
David Susskind 27:24
Oh I didn't see that
Dolores Alexander 27:27
Yes. At the moment of his greatest vulnerability woman. This is what women will do to man,
David Susskind 27:32
I find that revolting that shot. Okay, let's look at the love and kisses
Barbara Mehrhof 27:35
another record album cover
David Susskind 27:36
Barbara Mehrhof 27:37
called love and kisses.
Frances Patai 27:38
Dolores Alexander 27:38
Gang rape theme here
Frances Patai 27:40
and this is a typical pornographic image you will see one lone woman, usually just a part of her you see her face is not shown or just a tiny part of it is shown, which depersonalizes her more now when you depersonalized when you objectify when you reduce the woman to the sum of her parts. She's mellott She's manipulable. She's malleable. And
David Susskind 28:00
can we look at the next one.
Barbara Mehrhof 28:00
Wait one point I'd like to make here, David, is that last slide and about this slide too, which is the Rolling Stones billboard on Sunset Boulevard. If you'll notice there's a woman there. She's very glamorized, but actually, she has been beaten up. There are bruises on the inside of her legs. She's found with rope and she's saying the caption says I'm black and blue from the Rolling Stones. And I love it. The idea the reason why we use these slides in our slideshow is that we're trying to, to get people to understand that there's a whole continuum of pornographic images. It's not just sleazy bookstores. It's not just Hustler magazine, it seeped into the whole culture. The idea that women like to be beaten, the idea that that is sexy that women are naturally masochistic.
David Susskind 28:41
We have the next one.
Barbara Mehrhof 28:43
This is from Vogue magazine.
David Susskind 28:44
Barbara Mehrhof 28:45
Vogue, it's a fashion editorial
Dolores Alexander 28:47
It was December 1975. This is a fashion layout, not an ad but a fashion layout for jumpsuits. The woman, as a matter of fact, this is supposed to be a honeymoon couple. They're having a lover's spat, and he's clearly beating her up quite strenuously there. You'll notice the slave bracelets around her wrists and that chain around her neck. These are images that come right out of hardcore pornography that are now in even as reputable magazine as both
David Susskind 29:15
Okay, let's see the next one
Frances Patai 29:16
so notice, notice that although they're both wearing identical jumper unisex jumpsuits, the roles are not identical. He's hitting her,
David Susskind 29:24
Barbara Mehrhof 29:25
And another point, of course, is that wife beating is a very, very serious problem in this country. And this is glamorizing it.
Frances Patai 29:31
The FBI statistics indicate that wife beating is the most frequently occurring crime in the whole of the United States
David Susskind 29:38
But wife beating isn't happening off covers of magazines. and because of album covers
Frances Patai 29:44
we we opine that there is a connection
David Susskind 29:47
Frances Patai 29:48
there is that there is a legitimization Yes.
Barbara Mehrhof 29:51
Yeah, she's using the word right
David Susskind 29:53
never heard anyone said Opine, We opine
Barbara Mehrhof 29:57
You've read it. Come on.
David Susskind 29:58
Okay, let's have the next woman. this is the wonderers
David Susskind 30:02
an it's an ad
David Susskind 30:02
It's a movie.
Dolores Alexander 30:03
Yes, it's an ad for a movie called The Wanderers. And again, you have the gang rape theme. Men leering at a single,
David Susskind 30:09
Well they are not raping, they are simply leering,
Barbara Mehrhof 30:11
but this is objectifying the woman as a sexual object.
David Susskind 30:14
Well, a wom an is in part of sexual object. When she wears a tight skirt
Frances Patai 30:19
Oh you can't believe that old myth. I mean, surely you're not serious that she's inviting it by those tight clothes you don't believe
Jane McHugh 30:26
and you know, they're boys, young boys who go in and see this and think that this is the way they are to treat their girlfriends
David Susskind 30:33
I hope not
Jane McHugh 30:34
or the girls. See in school
Barbara Mehrhof 30:36
Of course, the image is setting up the idea of the fraternal group of males
Jane McHugh 30:42
the idea okay, no, it causes them to go out and do it.
David Susskind 30:47
Be sure we get all your slides in. Okay. This is an ad for Gloria Venables blue jeans. What's wrong with that?
Frances Patai 30:54
It uses the woman's behind in a fetishistic way it chops her it chops her up. So she's no longer a total person. She's now just a behind a hunk of meat. And you can do anything with a hunk of meat. And notice the caption that says, the G Gloria Vanderbilt jeans hit in all the right places. That violent verb is not accidental.
Jane McHugh 31:15
Yes, but couldn't they just be showing the style of the jean? This one I can't see
David Susskind 31:20
I am with you this seems to me to be selling the jeans
Jane McHugh 31:23
gene, the way it's made and the way women
Dolores Alexander 31:26
women were put we put ourselves in pants. Remember, in the early 70s, we put ourselves in jeans as a way to liberate ourselves to get ourselves out of girdles. And other than high heels and things like that. And as soon as we liberate ourselves in in loose fitting clothes, comfortable clothing, they go shortly afterwards they go to tight jeans and men make us bend over.
David Susskind 31:47
It's she there's bending over. I know but Gloria Vanderbelt is a quite a lady and I don't think she'd lend yourself to any uh pornography
Dolores Alexander 31:58
I don't think she's thought about it. I think that one of our jobs is to educate that I mean, that is our job. That is the nature that's the major thrust of our of our organization.
David Susskind 32:08
But if you manufactured a Jean wouldn't you want to be saying to the youngsters who liked them tight.
Barbara Mehrhof 32:14
jeans that are geared toward jeans for men do not emphasize just one part of a man's body. That dresses this is something that is very prevalent in pornography
David Susskind 32:24
I've seen men with jeans on TV commercials
Barbara Mehrhof 32:29
you've seen men but it is not in the same kind of volume that you do with women and pornography does tend to cut up women's body focus on a certain part of the body and presume it to be you know, sexual.
David Susskind 32:40
Is there any other slide? One more? All right. What's wrong, this is two children.
Dolores Alexander 32:46
Well, you are not able to do but you're not able to see what goes along the let's places in the context. Child pornography is increasingly available
David Susskind 32:56
Is this child pornography?
Dolores Alexander 32:57
no, this is not. But if we had been able to show you an example of what hardcore child pornography looks like, you'd see the same kinds of poses the same expressions on the faces
David Susskind 33:06
But ladies, is this shot pornographic?
Dolores Alexander 33:09
No, I don't think that this is pornographic. But this is
Frances Patai 33:12
this shot is part of a continuum of what our what our goal is in women against pornography is to educate people to see the connection between hardcore pornographic images which are pretty much standardized, and pornographic images that are filtering into the mainstream and thereby legitimizing this kind of thing. For instance, if we were able to show our total slideshow, we would show you juxtaposed with this Alexander's ad, we would show you some examples of true hardcore porn, hardcore child pornography, and you would see the connection between the little girls in the hardcore who were shown asking to be raped by men inviting sexual intercourse from middle aged men, nay, appearing insatiable, and thus legitimizing it were actually whereas actually, child pornography or even child molestation is a totally different a child doesn't ask to be molested. It is the male middle aged male molester who approaches the kid and rapes her. I would also like to note often part of the continuum if we were to show you the true hardcore porn, a child porn connection, and I just want to note that the FBI statistics indicate that not only is child pornography, child molestation on the increase, but one out of every two every one out of every chop one out of every girl children is attacked, molested raped
David Susskind 34:43
one out of what?
Frances Patai 34:44
one out of every four All right No, no one out of one out of every four rape big races under the age of 12.
David Susskind 34:53
Oh, that's a different I thought you said why not a very for girl children.
Barbara Mehrhof 34:57
No, no, no, no, no.
David Susskind 34:58
Barbara Mehrhof 34:58
No, no, no.
David Susskind 34:59
Well, we'll have to pause and come right back. You are genuinely alarmed I can see that.
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David Susskind 35:33
My friend Truman Capote once said on this program, pornography doesn't cause a rape or violent action. It just causes masturbation. What say you
Jane McHugh 35:45
that's very optimistic. If that's all it cost, I wouldn't object. But what I'm afraid of is that people come into these kinds of shops and look at these movies and get themselves worked up. And
David Susskind 35:58
They go home and they work on themselves,
Jane McHugh 36:00
in my experience, where our pornography shop was, what if they drive home through our little village
David Susskind 36:05
They're in a big hurry to get home?
Jane McHugh 36:09
Then they see a nice little teenage girl walking down the street, and it might occur to him gee, you know, would be nice to drag her into the woods
David Susskind 36:14
Pornography is not what causes rape?
Jane McHugh 36:17
No, I'm aware of that
David Susskind 36:18
People have studied rape, it does not flow from pornography.
Dolores Alexander 36:21
It creates a kind of terrorism in the country
David Susskind 36:25
It flows from a who psychic history of dysfunction. You know, this is a mental case.
Dolores Alexander 36:29
And it creates a climate of terrorism is what?
David Susskind 36:33
Dolores Alexander 36:33
Yeah, yeah, it. One of the things that I think that it's telling women in America to be today is that it's saying to us that we should be whores that we should behave, and we should look and behave the way these women do it. It makes us internalize this message. And and men do it too. So that they come to expect this from women. I mean, aside from that, I'm not talking about the violence. I'm talking about just the messages that one gets from pornography,
David Susskind 37:02
I thought having had a lot of sociologists, reputable credible people on the program through the years, that we're getting better as a society. Vis a vie the the relationship of men and women, that there's a freer, more honest equality, that there's a given take that the female now as rising expectations from sex from the man, he better deliver, that the sexual revolution is basically healthy, not ugly and terrible.
Frances Patai 37:34
A lot of the data that are coming out now would seem to belie that, for instance, the most recent findings of Marvin Wolfgang who was on the presidential, the original 1970 presidential commission to study obscenity, now is having second thoughts. His feeling now is that there is a definite and he has written to that effect that there is a definite connection between the rise of violent crimes, particularly violent crimes against women, and the increasing rising proliferation of pornography. Seymour Feshbach and Malinbooth sociologists out at UCLA who study in 1978 indicated the same thing. Their data indicates that when they're subjected, and it was a very elegantly designed study, when there's male subjects were shown violent images of rape where women enjoyed being raped. They later indicated that they to 51% of them indicated that they too, would feel no compunction about going out and raping if they were certain that they would not be caught. Also, an indication that and fine, and also another indication that sexual behavior can be altered by viewing violent pornographic material is is obvious when you think that those psychologists who want to alter behavior offered who are interested in in behavioral conditioning will use pornographic images to do so.
Barbara Mehrhof 39:01
I think one thing that we that we do believe is that there is no doubt but that pornography does influence people's attitudes. It influences the way men treat women, and it does influence their behavior. So I don't think that what you said before that there's absolutely no correlation between seeing pornography and
David Susskind 39:22
Violent sexual crimes
Barbara Mehrhof 39:23
crimes, I think,
David Susskind 39:24
There is no demonstrable evidence of that
Barbara Mehrhof 39:25
New studies are being done from a totally different perspective. For example, the 1970 presidential commission that Francis referred to, had very little to do with the connection between violence and pornography and violence toward women in real life.
David Susskind 39:42
You have all the question, such as if you could rape anyone that you choose to rape and get away with it and there will be no penalty to be paid. You call that an elegantly defined survey. What do you call though
Frances Patai 39:54
I didn't say that was an elegantly defined survey. I said that the Fleshbach and Malibu studies at UCLA where else were elegantly designed studies. In other words, in terms of scholarship, it's a decently designed piece of scholarship. It's not just some garbled piece of stuff that they threw together in a few minutes. And the newest studies about the the connection between violence and pornography, bear out the kinds of things that we have been talking about particularly Edward dinerstein study at the University of Wisconsin, his findings indicate a definite connection between violence and pornography
David Susskind 40:29
May I asked you if the habitual reader of Penthouse or the hustler is susceptible for the fact of his habit of violence, sexual crimes, that your contention that he is that he is likely to commit? Be tolerant of sympathetic to violent sexual
Dolores Alexander 40:49
Yes, Yes. Because because it does validate that kind of behavior of treatment
David Susskind 40:55
If he reads that, and the Atlantic Monthly and the New York Daily News and Time Magazine, is he going to be healthy? Basically, this will be one of the things he reads?
Dolores Alexander 41:08
Is he going to be healthy?
David Susskind 41:10
Mentally? He's going to read a good news weekly magazine or Newsweek I don't want to be partial, and he's gonna read the Atlantic Monthly read the Daily News, or the Chicago Tribune
Dolores Alexander 41:20
He's going to be well read, but he's gonna be it's gonna have he's gonna have a very warped view about women and about sex today, and
David Susskind 41:29
why will he be warped?
Dolores Alexander 41:31
teenagers my nephew's read Playboy and hustler and things like that. I don't like the image of women that they're getting from this from the stuff that they're reading or
David Susskind 41:40
Most of the people reading the magazines or using it for masturbatory purposes.
Frances Patai 41:43
Well that may be but I mean, you're entitled to that opinion. But I want to say this before this program is over, the issues that we have raised here, can truly can truly not be dealt with in a one half hour TV show. And I would like to say that those viewers who are interested in this whose consciousness has been raised by this, who would like more information should contact Women Against pornography, because what you have seen is just a mini version of our slideshow and it's seen out of context,
David Susskind 42:19
can I just coined a phrase? You've seen the tip of the iceberg? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of sex underneath what you've seen terrible stuff, right?
Frances Patai 42:28
It's not a question of a lot of terrible sex. We don't think sex cos sex is terrible. We think that pornography has nothing to do with sex, we are not against sex.
Barbara Mehrhof 42:37
David, I really think that you are making light of something that that we take very, very seriously.
David Susskind 42:44
I'm not making light of it. No can I come back and say, I have to pause. Okay. And I come back and tell you what I think I hope I'm doing. I'm questioning you. And I'm making the case, that maybe it's a personal aberration to which the individual who wants it is clearly entitled. Okay, you come back and answer that. We'll be back in a minute.
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David Susskind 43:25
I want to say quickly, we only have a little time that I believe that pornography is ugly, ridiculous, a waste of time, beneath contempt. But if somebody likes it, and wishes to pay some money and buy a magazine
Dolores Alexander 43:40
It's not somebody it's 16 million men are buying the top 10 Sex magazines in this country. That's just sec, that's just a magazine. Pornography is a $4 billion a year industry. That's more than the music business. Record business and movies put together?
David Susskind 43:57
Should we sensor it out fo exsistnace?
Jane McHugh 43:57
No, I don't think so
Barbara Mehrhof 43:57
No, but I think we have to change people's attitudes about it
Jane McHugh 44:01
I think right there, people's attitude should be changed. And I think there are areas where it belongs and other areas where it just doesn't. And I don't think that children should have access to it. If a man wants to go in and buy a magazine, and as he said, go home and read the magazine. I'll be perfectly honest, I don't see anything wrong with that. But I don't like is when you have shops growing up in little towns, where you have all of these magazines you have these peep shows this apparatus and youngsters go in and they see this and come out thinking this is right.
David Susskind 44:33
Don't they have laws forbidding anyone under 18 from going in?
Jane McHugh 44:35
18 so the 18 year old goes in there, he does it. He purchases it and he goes back to the high school or goes into the neighborhood and gives it to the little children. He can't bring it home. And a man of 50 his moral character basically is is fairly well set. But you take young children, they're formulating their ideas, they're formulating their views of sex,
David Susskind 44:58
what should we do? Drive these magazines off the market.
Frances Patai 45:01
Look, we are not advocating censorship in any form. What Women Against pornography are about is to educate people to raise consciousness as to the connection between pornography and violence.
Barbara Mehrhof 45:16
And I think that as far as what we can do, I know and women against pornography, we we've had a conference, we've had a March, we take our slideshows out to universities, we conduct tours of Times Square. We're interested in letting people know how we feel about pornography, that we think pornography hurts women, that we think it contributes to violence against women in real life, and that we want very much to change.
David Susskind 45:41
I think it hurst them too I want you to waste their time. it trivializes life, it's obscene and ugly. I think it's damaging.
Frances Patai 45:50
Yes, but there is a $4 billion a year business which has a market and then produce this and men then buy them
David Susskind 45:56
A lot of women buy it I read in today's newspaper that they raided a strip joint a male strip joint and there were 100 irate women went up the wall and they were tucking money into the jockstraps of men.
Frances Patai 46:12
This is such a small tangential little
David Susskind 46:15
But it's growing my dear friend
Frances Patai 46:16
in in contrast to
David Susskind 46:20
We're out of time, women against pornography is a serious organization. And if you want to write them, where do they get in touch
Barbara Mehrhof 46:26
with 579 Ninth Avenue, New York City
David Susskind 46:29
579 Ninth Avenue in New York City and perhaps we'll have another go at it sometime. Anyway, I want to thank you for being here and we'll be back with more program.
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SUSSKIND CLOSES SHOW:
David Susskind 47:04
That's it for tonight and thank you for being with us. See you again next week at the same time till then good night.
Description: 10/05/80 PART I: PROSTITUTES TELL ALL "NINA", "CATHERINE", AND "MELINDA" 32112 CHICAGO, DC 01/12/80 02/03/80 10/05/80 PART II: WOMEN AGAINST PORNOGRAPHY DOLORES ALEXANDER, JANE MCHUGH, FRANCES PATAI, AND BARBARA MEHRHOF 32112 CHICAGO, DC
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