FOLK MUSIC
INTERVIEW WITH MUSICIAN AND SONGWRITER JOAN BAEZ
PART 2 CONDUCTED BY MURRAY LERNER
PART 2 CONDUCTED BY MURRAY LERNER
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| 01:00:01 1.43 |
Color Bars
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| 01:00:04 4.36 |
Murray Lerner 00:04
When Mimi and Dick Farina were playing, you remember that? And it was raining. And you were really dancing backstage and wonder what your feelings were at the time of their playing. It must have been exciting for your sister to be playing. So forth, to be accepted as they were very well known. How did you feel about all that and what was the dancing all about backstage, just letting loose because it was raining and everybody was worried about the rain. Joan Baez 00:33 That dancing was General exhilaration. Yeah, the rain my sister on stage. Dick was pretty magnetic and, and moving. Probably just whoop dee doo Newport. And I hadn't been ? yet, so I didn't really know. But I danced anyway. I loved it. I still do. |
| 01:01:04 64.47 |
Murray Lerner 01:05
Dancing, same scene. I remember. Joan Baez I don't remember if I blocked it out perhaps? Definitely. Fear. Yeah. Murray Lerner: Anyway, that was an exciting scene, actually. And I was glad it rained. They were all worried about electricity during the rain. Really worried? And then. Did you have any favorite other performers working back from 65? Did you like the Butterfield Blues Band? Joan Baez 01:37 Yeah, I was in another vein, though. I had more appreciation for them. But closer to me was say the first person I thought of when you asked about you know what people stand out for me, it was Earl Scruggs. You know, it I just had adored their music and played a couple songs with them and that was you know, wonderful for me. And I don't even know there were too many some ever remember some great Back blues guy picking me up and carrying me over our mud puddles? No wasn't Howling Wolf. And I don't remember his name. He was a big guy. Oh, maybe I'll think of it later. I remember Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee. They were kind of Pete Seeger connections to, now you name them, I remember remember the, is it Bradford choir? Singing off into the mist singing this great gospel song sort of floating off stage in their robes into the mist. And all these things, dramatic things, happened, every year actually. I remember the clog dancers. There would be things that were happening, just sort of, your jaw would hang open. one never seen them before. And two, they were good. I mean, the ones who were brought they were good. |
| 01:01:35 95.77 |
JOAN BAEZ TALKS ABOUT CERTAIN PERFORMERS AT NEWPORT - SHE MENTIONS EARL SCRUGGS AS A STANDOUT FOR HER -
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| 01:02:35 155.91 |
TALKS ABOUT SONNY TERRY AND BROWNIE MCGEE - BRADFORD CHOIR - FLOATING OFF STAGE IN THEIR ROBES IN THE MIST
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| 01:03:15 195.84 |
Murray Lerner 03:16
No, theyt hey were just a temporary group of students. Joan Baez 03:20 I know I heard that. Murray Lerner 03:21 And I got calls from Radio City Music Hall wanting to book them and the Villagevanguard. What did you feel about the conflicts that began to develop between traditional, the really really traditional people, and more non traditional. there was a lot of back infighting at night. I don't know if you went to these meetings and the board Joan Baez 03:51 Meetings? I wouldn't go. I still avoid them like the plague, but no I wasn't even aware that there would be long discussions into the night about what the conflicts of Murray Lerner 04:07 how many black, how many white, really there was alot of that And Alan was part of that you know. Alan Lomax. About that kind of conflict Joan Baez 04:22 What would Alan Lomax be saying? What would Alan Lomax be saying in a meeting like that? Murray Lerner 04:29 He was pushing for his control I think over some of these black groups you know. there's a famous scene where he's teaching them how to chop wood. Have you ever seen that on stage? the chopping wood like a chain gang And of course there was a fight between him and Alan Grossman. |
| 01:04:51 291.74 |
Joan Baez 04:49
Of course. I know. Alan Lomax came to a concert of mine. I don't know what year it was, but I had other musicians with me. I don't know whether it was drumming and all that stuff. But he's he came backstage. And you know, I had been a lot of my older material, I sort of hadn't evolved to the time period where it was confused about what I was doing, or now when I'm not confused anymore, but it's a different thing. But he came backstage and said, Why do you need those musicians with you on the stage? I said something like, have you ever heard of evolution? That I had no desire to be the world's oldest living folk singer? I mean, I had to try other things. And not to put that down. I mean, I think Jean Ricci is like a museum of exactly what she does. And as far as I know, she never has done anything but really traditional play party tunes, dance tunes. She's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And I love the sound of it. And it's not something I could do or wanted to do. Murray Lerner 06:10 Well Pete Seeger has had himself and had groups, I mean he's played with groups as well as himself. Joan Baez 06:18 Yeah, Pete Seeger's groups would all be on an unplugged totally. As Pete came to a concert a few years back and its when i had a full band . And I sort of thought, Oh, dear, I wish he hadn't come because I knew he wouldn't like all that. And he came backstage afterwards. And it was Pete, I'd always sort of blow everything and give him a hug and shhezz here is hearing. And he doesn't like hugs anyway, doesn't know what to do with them. And tell her she was very sweet and said nice things about the show and pizza and he throws his head back said, "Well, I guess everybody uses drums these days. My grandchildren, one of them has abandoned, they have drums". That's exactly Pete. He's always been that way. |
| 01:07:08 428.41 |
Murray Lerner 07:09
It was a big force. I remember when he first sang I heard him. He was arousing the audience very deliberately. I had never seen anything like that. But then uh, remember him singing Green Corn with Jim Kweskin Band Joan Baez 07:25 oh, no, you mean in this? Murray Lerner 07:29 In the Newport. What do you think of the (Kweskin) Jug Band? Joan Baez 07:30 TheJug Band? New weird. Their music was good. The people were a little weird to me. You know, I didn't connect. I remember actually it was Mel Lyman coming up to me at some kind of gathering and asking me what my sign was. I told him it was Capricorn. He said, "Oh, then we have nothing to say". And apparently, he came up to my older sister and asked her what her sign was, and she told him I don't remember and he talked all night. So if that works out that way, that's good. No, I probably wouldn't have had much to say. Murray Lerner 08:11 I think it was a whole lot weirder than you can imagine. Actually i had a vacation on Martha's Vineyard and a lot happened. He followed me to Martha's Vineyard to the festival. That might have been the beginning of this group called the Family. I don't kow. |
| 01:08:29 509.24 |
Joan Baez 08:27
You mean Kweskin followed you or Mel Lyman Murray Lerner 08:32 Mel Lyman, he slept in our back, we had a great rental house because he thought that the Newport film was prophetic. Which is was. Joan Baez: yeah it was Murray Lerner 08:43 the ah what about Peter, Paul and Mary? Joan Baez 08:50 You know, Peter, Paul, and Mary, I grudgingly actually liked some of their music. And I knew Peter, you know, Peter was Peter and I, there's certainly things about him that one has to appreciate. Um I had my conflicts with Mary because I kept blowing it I kept going out on stage. By what, before they're set or whatever, before I'd even started saying rude things about them. And Mary would become upset with me maybe the same evening they were on and I'd make an appearance. And that was somehow threatening or insulting or whatever. And so, you know, I think now we'd already said we'd all sit around have a good yuck about it. But back then all these tensions and it's and I was Queen of Folk and I didn't have anything to worry about. And I didn't think in those terms. Anyway, I didn't think of somebody being threatened by somebody else being on stage. So you know, we didn't pal around I put it that way. You Peter. I knew Peter somewhat. I didn't really know the other two that well. Murray Lerner 10:05 What about the performance? Excuse me can you repeat i didn't know Peter well, I interrupted you. |
| 01:10:06 606.66 |
Joan Baez 10:06
when I saw the festival film and saw Peter Paul and Mary in the wind in the midst. I started to cry. I mean, it really was beautiful. And it was not something I would have either felt or wanted to admit way back then. Murray Lerner 10:28 I'm embarrassed to ask you this, but talk a little bit because I asked him what you thought about the film, because this is going to come after the film. Joan Baez 10:39 Watching the film, of course brings up heaps of stuff for me, it was first of all, a beautiful film. There's no question about that. I thought it was brilliantly made. I always like something where I come off looking good, you know, that helps. But um, so there are two ways to look at it. One is what kind of a film it was and whether it was put together, you know, properly and technically and I think that's all taken care of on the positive side. And then what is it that it personally brings up for me ? Lots, you know, my childhood ,I was still a child at the beginning of that. Dylan and I had our baby fat for God's sake, you know, we hadn't gotten past that and and when you haven't seen something or have been reminded of it in decades, and then you see it, it gets it moves things around inside there. There was a lot of turmoil at that age going on for all of us. And so, whatever turmoils I have now don't compare with what it was like back then. And then there was just the music. And though the music was fantastic, the Clog Dancers blew my mind I'd forgotten about him. |
| 01:11:33 693.89 |
" THERE WAS A LOT OF TURMOIL GOING ON FOR ALL OF US AT THAT AGE ( GOOD QUOTE ) - THE MUSIC WAS FANTASTIC - THE ESSENCE OF NEWPORT WAS " NON-COMMERCIALISM, RAIN, LOTS OF PEOPLE, PRE-HIPPIES - THESE CLEANCUT KIDS BEING CONFRONTED WITH THIS MUSIC WHAT DID IT MEAN - IT WAS REALLY THE BEGINNING OF A CURVE " ( GREAT QUOTE )
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| 01:11:58 718.7 |
Joan Baez 12:00
As far as the essence of Newport, which really was to me non-commercialism, rain, lots of people and what struck me was, it was pre hippies. You think oh, yeah, Newport bunch of hippies. They didn't have long hair yet. These clean cut kids sitting there and and being confronted with this music in a sense. Oh, what did it mean? And it was it was that really a beginning of a curve I think. Murray Lerner 12:34 Well, what did you think of the issues it raised. You discussed that previously and i'd just like that again? It raised a lot of issues about war, peace, and you and I screamed and it seemed to feel that it's still relevant to us, do you feel that about this film? Joan Baez 12:55 Well, it's a lot of things like the film have, you know, they sort of fade in a sense for a while and now I mean, let me put it this way, my audiences have ballooned courtesy of George Bush. You know he has pissed so many people off that they come to my concerts whether they wanted to or not, because they know I'm going to take a position on it which I do. So when the when the film is seen now, it's the right time for it. I mean, we're going in in the film it was approaching a crisis period we're in a crisis period now. So yes, it it is irrelevant you know. |
| 01:13:41 821.85 |
Murray Lerner 13:40
Okay, I think I tired you out enough Joan Baez 13:49 Laughs, I'm not tired. |
| 01:14:09 849.05 |
Joan Baez
With God on His Side
(live)
JOAN BAEZ SINGS " WITH GOD ON HIS SIDE " BOB DYLAN SONG
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| 01:18:53 1133.02 |
SONG ENDS - Joan fiddles with guitar
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| 01:21:10 1270.21 |
Joan Baez
With God on His Side
(live)
TAKE TWO IN CLOSE UP
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| 01:26:39 1599.83 |
SONG ENDS - SONG MEANS THE SAME NOW AS IT DID THEN - ITS A PROPHETIC SONG AND THE TIME HAS COME AROUND TO SING IT NOW AND ITS EVEN MORE NEEDED TODAY THAN IN THE 1960S
JOAN BAEZ TALKS ABOUT HOW THE POLITICS HAVE CHANGED FOR THE WORSE |
| 01:26:41 1601.46 |
Murray Lerner 26:39
let me ask you this. What does this song mean to you then what does it mean that Joan Baez 26:46 same goddamn thing. The song means the same now is it meant 40 years ago. So it's a prophetic song. And it's also, I love to sing it. And I'm sorry, I have to sing it. And the time has come around to sing it again. And the time is really more potentially devastating than it ever was in the 60s. Murray Lerner 27:15 Well, did you feel when we're singing in the 60s that it was a devastating time? Or was this just a warning? Joan Baez 27:22 When I felt in the 60s I would say that If we didn't do x, x and x, we'd never make it to the century. We made it to the century. However, I never knew then the tangible fear that I have known since in the last few years, it's been in the 2000s. It's not that we have more weapons. Except that there's more ill will? There are more sociopaths. I used it used to be Pol Pot and a couple of types like him. The Rwandan, I can't remember his name right now. And now it's our own administration is rife with sociopaths, or with a set of enough characteristics of a sociopath, meaning they can't feel for anybody, they don't care how many of our people die, they don't care how many of their people die. And so we're really stuck in in a cycle. And when people say, Well, how come nobody's doing anything these days? I think they are. I think it's not getting reported. They may not be doing it with the fervor that happened back then. But when I was talking earlier about counterculture, merging into culture, it can't do that unless the press is going to report what's happening. It simply can't do that. |
| 01:28:54 1734.23 |
Murray Lerner 28:55
Its very often, the counterculture is corrupted, isn't it? I mean, it's used for commercial purposes. Joan Baez 29:01 Well, the counterculture was used for commercial purposes 40 years ago. It was just somehow more lighthearted than now. I mean, you know what I was offered $50,000 to do a Coca Cola ad. And I remember telling my manager but I don't drink Coca Cola. You know, so it's certainly on my part beyond innocence. But um just a different feeling from now the hardcore commercialism and the hardcore commercials and by the way, I count seconds on commercials and the religious Jesus Christian commercial lasted two minutes and 15 seconds and the longest any the other ones lasted was 35 seconds. Murray Lerner 29:52 What is the phrase, I know it's an obvious question, with God on your side, mean to you? Joan Baez 29:59 Phrase with God on my side very simply means what most people think about their own personal lives versus their neighbors or whatever. That's not so dangerous. I mean, you can go into a bar with God on your side get drunk and knock somebody in the chops and sort of I mean, maybe that's a healthy work it out of your system that way. But with God on my side, when governments do that, which they all do assume that God is on their side, under the name of that you can do anything you want with God is on our side. he slaughtered X 100,000 people and we knew that it was okay. |
| 01:30:41 1841.25 |
Murray Lerner 30:41
All right, good. I'm glad you're saying that. Yeah. Joan Baez All right. Murray Lerner 30:54 Yes fantastic let me ask your prophesies I don't mean real prophetsin the biblical sense, or maybe it is that Joan Baez 30:58 well, it is that actually. I think it is that. In Hard Rain. Yeah, that's spooky. Singing that and that's just positively spooky. Murray Lerner 31:10 I guess I'm scared because it doesn't seem to me like they can avoid using tactical nuclear weapons, both sides. Joan Baez 31:20 Tactical nuclear weapons. My guess is they're already using it. My guess is they're already using them, you know, small, little, nice little small ones. The cute kinds. But that's certainly, there would be nothing wrong with it as far as this administration goes. And that but since we are the, you know, in a sense, everybody looks to America, everybody in some ways, you know, wishes they had everything that we have. Everybody wants a bunch of nuclear warheads. What astounds me is that we go on regulating what everybody else has, and we have so many in our own arsenal. And when somehow were exempt. |
| 01:32:08 1928.96 |
Murray Lerner 32:09
I don't think it's a moral issue. It's a curtain. They use, masking it its a moral term,. It's a power issue, period. I think we're exploiting democracy. We're exploiting goods. I don't think its Joan Baez 32:20 I think we're destabilizing governments, which is always to our benefit. Murray Lerner 32:26 I mean, democracy has to rise from within, you know and Joan Baez 32:31 They can't bomb democracy into people probably not. it didn't work in the 60s and it's not working now. Murray Lerner 32:40 What did Harold Pinter say in some article I read. He said, they talk about them wanting them to deal with freedom loving nations, people. He said, as far as I know, I've never met a freedom hating people. So the idea that these words mean nothing I mean why would we care whether another country is democratic or not? It's crazy. on that level of killing people to make them democratic, you know? And now, I mean, it's a movement that either works internally or not. And people have to want it Joan Baez Oil, oil, oil Money, power. Murray Lerner 33:29 of the economic colonialism mainly these words mask, I mean, I think the Arab countries all this suicide stuff is a result of brainwashing by people like Saudi Arabia, it's not not everybody who who has lost their land is going to kill themselves for a cause. I mean, there are other lands that have been lost and that hasn't happened. But there's obviously a movement. I think it all comes from the top you know, what people think that way, unfortunately, and in America also. Joan Baez 34:03 I think its power. I think its power. And they said that and I gotta go because I think my daddy's here. Is my father here, Nancy. He comes on Wednesdays, my dad? Yeah. Taking care of that. Now I need a throat lozenge which I see hiding Lerner That was a good choice of song. Wonderful. |
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