SUSSKIND INTRODUCES SHOW TOPIC AND GUESTS & INTERVIEW BEGINS:

David Susskind
Good evening I'm David Susskind. 20 years ago blacks and Jews linked arms and marched in the South for civil rights. Today the black leaders are demanding recognition of the PLO and a Palestinian homeland as the black Jewish Alliance crumble, and if so, how can it be revived? Tonight Jews and blacks speak their minds. Please meet my guests now. First, Dr. Joseph Lowery is president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. After Andrew Young's resignation as our ambassador to the UN, Dr. Lowery made a trip to the Mideast where he met with Yasser Arafat, head of the PLO. Arnold Foster is general counsel for the anti Defamation League of B'nai Brith, associated with the law firm of Shane Gould. Mr. Foster is also co author of the new anti semitism. Attorney Randall Robinson is executive director of trans Africa, a black American Foreign Affairs lobby for Africa and the Caribbean. Howard Squadron is president of the American Jewish Congress, and is the first non rabbi to head that organization in 40 years. Mr. Squadron is a prominent New York attorney. I can't remember when blacks and Jews have been so polarized. Is there any hope of a reconciliation? You think? Dr. Lowery

Joseph Lowery
Yes, I'm I'm sure there is. I'm not sure the relationship is exactly falling apart. As you mentioned, in your opening statement, I think it's being tested. It's being held under the search light of truth and reality. And I think also this experience hopefully, will come

David Susskind
when you embrace Arafat, over there, and Arab country, you're not testing your tormenting?

Joseph Lowery
Well, I don't think so. I'm not sure what you mean by embrace? If you mean, did I, when I talk with conversed with communicating with or more accurately preached to that that torments, then I think we've got some serious problems and understanding the role of preaching the role of communication, the mission of the church and the mission of our movement. But I think there is a test here as to whether or not the relationship the alliance is based on truth and reality and understanding. And I think as I started to say, hopefully, we'll come out of this experience with a stronger commitment to those goals and objectives, which we all hold, dear.

Randall Robinson
I think I think your question to him whether he's tormenting or not, helps to focus the the central question of the debate here and I think we ought to talk first about what the screens are on the relationship. I think Andrew Young's dismissal was just the precipitating event. I think that the conditions were pre existing. For the strains. Number one, is the question of, of quotas. A very vital question to the to the black community, the

David Susskind
affirmative action

Randall Robinson
the affirmative action.

Howard Squadron
I don't think we ought to mix up affirmative action and quotas, I think Mr. Robinson used the word quotas. And let's stay with that.

Randall Robinson
Let me finish it. Okay. The the question of quotas is one word, affirmative action setting goals. So that's, if you will. The second issue is the issue of Israel, the Middle East question, I think in the black community that has been for some time, a sympathy for the Palestinian cause, I think a balance sympathy in as much as there's a feeling that there has not been a balanced presentation and discussion in this country of the Middle East issue. And the third question is, is a troublesome question for those of us who deal with foreign policies as a quickening relationship between between Israel and South Africa? It's been a bothersome thing for some time. And I think those things have have put a lot of freight on the on the black Jewish relationship.

David Susskind
Could I introduce something and ask you a comment? there's been a simmering anti semitism in the black ghetto for a lot of years. And that has to do with none of the things you've been talking about. It has to do with the black conception of the Jew in the black ghetto, as the landlord, as the store owner, as the collector of time payments as the teacher or non teacher of his black children in the school.

Randall Robinson
I just don't think that's major issue here. I don't think it's

David Susskind
Is it true?

Randall Robinson
Well, let's, let's frame a question this way. Anytime you have two different ethnic groups that seek to develop, cultivate and have ethnic pride. Of course, the the consequence of that is an antagonism towards other groups. It's a natural kind of dynamic tension of intergroup relations. As long as that is kept within parameters of safety, then it doesn't become a problem, I think that's been exacerbated by the by the issues that I've raised. And my experience in this country, I don't I never distinguish between the the Jewish community and the and the majority community. And I don't think most blacks separate Jews out for any in a special feeling one way or the other.

Arnold Foster
I think your just so wrong in suggesting that it's a contest to develop pride from where I sit. The Jewish community is complete with pride. It feels a tremendous prestige, and sense of accomplishment for what it's given to this country to the world over the many millennia. It has no problem about pride. I think if you want to talk about a confrontation between blacks and Jews, and I agree with you that the word falling apart is too much. It's a confrontation that comes in which Jews have been hurt by the attitudes, the expressions, the positions of some black leaders. They're aghast that other positions. For example, I don't think Reverend Lowery that you can push aside, as glibly as you did. The hugging of Arafatand singing We Shall Overcome with him. 24 hours before Arafat's legions murdered 30 odd people. I think you're not testing Jews. Dr. Lowery you're turning them off. When you suggest that our a fight is a person responsible enough to sit and negotiate with a man who's headed up an umbrella of organizations that compose 16 Marxist and Maoist terrorist bands, which is responsible of a period of years for killing well over 1000 civilians, men, women and children. You're looking vain, deceive deaths by the PLO of soldiers. No, putting your arm, Dr. Lowery around Yasser Arafat, I think, turns off Jews and separates you from other leaders in the black community, like Vernon Jordan Buyer Dresden and Ben Hooks.

Joseph Lowery
Well, I don't agree with much of what you said. But let me speak to to one issue, particularly, I heard you say at the beginning, and I was glad that we all deal with the issues. I think you deal with an irrelevant situation, the fact that after a prayer, somebody started singing quite spontaneously We Shall Overcome is the issue. The issue is not that we met with Arafat know that we greeted him in the style of the Arabs or that part of the world. But the question is, what were the issues that we discussed with Yasser Arafat? And I think if we want to deal honestly and fairly, with this situation, this crisis, we're going to have to deal with the issues and not try to single out some irrelevancies that that cloud issues we proposed to Yasser Arafat. Two basic propositions. One was that the PLO ought to recognize the nationhood of Israel. We said to them in no uncertain terms that it flies in the face of world opinion, it weakens your own argument on behalf of the Palestinian people, when you refuse to recognize their nationhood of Israel does broad and deep support in the world for the nationhood of Israel, we support the nationhood always What do you wait a second, let me get my second. My second proposition was, and that goes, because I think there's a tendency here not to want to deal with the issues. And to deal with the theatrics, with the second part of that was that we challenge you to call a moratorium on violence, that we don't believe this situation can be resolved by violence, that we have come through a struggle, out of oppression out of the Valley of, of despair and deprivation. through nonviolent methods. We suggest that you stop putting bombs in garbage cans or school buses or in shopping centers, and try non violence, declare a moratorium on violence and terror and let the community of nations try to exert the kind of influence that brings all the parties to the table. So that matter can be resolved peacefully.Now that's where we ought to have the discussion.

Howard Squadron
Dr. Larry, I think we ought to have the discussion right that let's have it for a minute. Before you ever went to meet with Mr. Arafat, this country had taken a position in a solemn commitment Israel, which was given an exchange for tangible on the ground concessions by Israel, the withdrawal from the Gideon Mitla pass As the giving up of the oil fields in 1975, reconfirmed by a letter from the President of the United States this year as part of the peace agreement, that there would be no discussions with the PLO until they recognize the right of Israel to exist, not even a request, which I think you are quite right in making that they disclaimed violence. Now, that was a demand of this country, and a demand that had been made not only through diplomatic methods, but had been of this country but of many countries in the world. Mr. Arafat paid no attention. Now, maybe you are more persuasive than all the rest of the diplomats of the world. But it does seem to me that taking it upon yourself to go and preach that message is a signal with respect to certain black leadership in this country. I don't agree with Mr. Susskind, the black Jewish alliance is not falling apart. I worked very hard with Vernon Jordan on the Black Forum this year, in opposition to the by resolution calling for direct popular election president. We want it and we wanted on behalf of the Jewish communities in the black community. We worked together for Humphrey Hawkins, couple of years ago, we are working together in local communities throughout this country, black and Jewish local leadership, and welfare problems and housing problems and education problems on unemployment, pogroms, and many others. And we will continue to do so. What is disturbing, it seems to me is that you have gone and made this symbolic gesture and let me talk about singing We Shall Overcome, because it hurts me. Personally, I was heartsick. When I saw it. I lead a group of American Jewish Congress members down Constitution Avenue in 1963. And that march on Washington was addressed by one Jewish leader, a predecessor, President of the American Jewish Congress, you welcome friends, we said the sin of silence. And I want to tell you that I linked arms with blacks and whites standing there in front of the mall, and saying, We shall overcome. And I did it in those years, many, many times in many, many meetings. It has great meaning to me. My own view is that the use of that song with that terrorist who was taking pride that very day that civilians have been killed in a city in Israel by a terrorist sneak bomb. That was a perversion.

David Susskind
You may right after this pause, and I regret the pause. We'll be back.

INTERVIEW RESUMES:

David Susskind
Mr. Robinson,

Randall Robinson
I think that it's inflammatory and non constructive to to make references to Yasser Arafat and the PLO is terrorist. But isn't that wait a minute, let me let me finish my point. You've got to understand that the PLO is recognized by the overwhelming majority of people in the world, it is recognized by the UN, it is recognized by the League of Arab States. It is recognized by the OAU and overwhelmingly by the Palestinian people themselves as the organization that they want to represent their interest, the central interest in this contest. Now, let me back up for just a second, I want to put this problem in context, so that we can give our audience some sense of why the Palestinians feel aggrieved. And why there's a sense of support for the Palestinian community in the in the black community in this country. If one looks back 50 years, we see the the source of the problem. After the the end of World War One. Palestine became an A class a mandate, as it were other classic mandates in the in the Middle East, Syria, and Syria before that Syria, for us, it was under Turkey fundamental 400 years. But Palestine itself was 90 90%. Palestinian, at the time of the end of World War One. Now the other class a mandate, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, were moved quickly to independence consistent with notions of self determination under the League of Nations, but because of an understanding between the Zionist organization and and Great Britain at the time, the Palestinians were were not allowed to have the right to self determination. So that we saw in collaboration with the Zionist organization for 30 years under the British Mandate, the whole composition of the area change. Now, I'm suggesting that we saw this, we saw we saw a fundamental change in the character of the population until the time of just before during World War Two,

David Susskind
Mr. Robinson, the text of this evening is the black Jewish problem in the united states

Randall Robinson
No that's what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that let me finish my point. My point is because there is a feeling in the black community and throughout the world, that the Palestinian population has been disinherited, dispossessed and winds, that kind of sympathy around the world, that they are support for that in the black community. We're talking about people who have been Press the desperate straits so that when we talk about terrorism, we must also talk about the stirring game. We must talk about the urban who, who who sought to drive out the British has the mandatory power around 1940. And of course, the head of their boom, the supreme combatants and the early boys was Prime Minister manakin Bagan.

Howard Squadron
Have you looked at the map, Mr. Robinson, that Israel is a postage stamp. It's hardly noticeable. It exists in an area where there are, I don't know more than 20 Arab states with vast population 80 million people. There are more than enough Arab states to accommodate all of the Palestinian population, including the refugees had they been disposed to they have not been disposed to and they've not been disposed to because this was an issue. It saddens me. Mr. Robinson, I must tell you, it saddens me that within our community in the United States, blacks would take on the dispossessed Palestinian Cause as their own cause. I haven't heard any conversations about Northern Ireland. I haven't heard any conversations about the Cambodians. I haven't heard a lot of other conversations. And I think that when Mr. Susskind said before, that this is kind of a tormenting device, it is true.

Randall Robinson
Let me respond to that

Howard Squadron
on that alone. On that basis alone. I don't think it would be worth this kind of television discussion. Let me suggest to you what is really happening that's much more serious. By referring to the United Nations, a an organization which has adopted resolutions that Zionism equals racism, by referring to all of the Third World nations, which had Havana recently adopted resolution that Zionism is a crime against humanity. You are aligning yourself, not only with those forces in the world, that would scapegoat the Jews and Israel, which I think is very sad. But you are aligning yourself with those forces in the world that are beating Israel over the head because they are really basically opposed to this country. They do not attack only Israel. They attack the Egypt, Israel peace agreement on the ground that somehow it is not a peaceful Act. Now how it can be possible for the two main belligerents in an area where there have been four wars in 30 year to arrive at a peace agreement and have it attacked as un peaceful is incredible to me. It's a perversion of words.

Arnold Foster
Howard you are too kind

Howard Squadron
Let me finish Arnold, let me finish it's a perversion of words as Zionism equals racism is as Zionism is a crime against humanity is, as everything I'm afraid to say. Mr. Robinson, you've said today is this kind of semantic game is basically against the interests of this country.

Randall Robinson
Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you

Arnold Foster
Mr Robinson, are you aware that the PLO destroyed Lebanon, are you aware that the PLO almost brought down Jordan, do you understand what Mr. Squadron said, when he indicated that Israel is 7000 square miles, the 21 Arab nations are 1 million square miles. And they include the wealth of the world, the wealth of the world, in the hands of five nations, well able to take care of every Palestinian on earth against a group of Arab nations, which has cast out its own people, which has refused to take care of its people.

Randall Robinson
I don't think that's I don't think that's the issue

Arnold Foster
Let's go back to your history Since you made the issue. There was a mandate.

David Susskind
can we get away from history Arnold

Arnold Foster
Sure we can for one minute.

David Susskind
I want to come to Today

Arnold Foster
we'll be back to it. There was a mandate

Howard Squadron
What's happening today is that the United States has been slammed with a club that that's used to attack Israel. And all of this PLO inspired attack on Israel all over the world, including all of these third world nations, including Mr. Castro with the United Nations is an attack on this country. Let's make no mistake about it. And blending yourself to that is a surprise to me. I must tell you it's a great surprise.

Joseph Lowery
It's a surprise to me that you would equate support for the Palestinian cause.

David Susskind
For the PLO. Let's be clear

Joseph Lowery
You say what you want, when you speak. I'll say what I'm trying to say when I speak. I said you are equating support for the cause of the Palestinian refugees and the Palestinian people with with an attack or hostility toward Israel. And I just I just have to reject that. In order to be pro Palestinian you don't have to be anti Israel

Howard Squadron
In order to be pro Arafat, you do.

Arnold Foster
let's get away from it. You didn't meet with the Palestinians you met with a PLO?

Joseph Lowery
Well, they are they are representative according to 100 nations, according to all Arab nations, according to the United nations, according

David Susskind
Mr Lowery, may I ask you a question. If Andrew Young hadn't been fired for lying to the president united states in the Secretary of State. He was fired because he lied. He wasn't fired because he had that meeting because he was asked about the meeting

Arnold Foster
Nor because he was black.

David Susskind
Nor because he was black nor because Israel demanded it. No, because the American Jewish Congress had anything to do with it. He was fired for lying to the boss. You know, when Carter came to Washington, he said, I'll tell you nothing but the truth, this administration will not suffer liars. Andrew Young lied. So he was fired. Would you have gone there with your group to see Arafat if Andrew Young was still at his post?

Joseph Lowery
I don't know. I don't think that's relevant. but the point is, I think Randall said at the beginning that that was the precipitory act. And probably that did indicate

David Susskind
Do you believe the Jewish community or Israel had anything to do with the firing of Andrew Young?

Joseph Lowery
I don't think it was a major factor. I think what got Andy fired was the the weakness of the State Department and this government and administration in its in its policy and posture toward the Mid East

Randall Robinson
But we have to think, Wait, we have to think that Israel had something to do with it.

Howard Squadron
Why do we have to think Mr. Robinson. Unless we want to.

Randall Robinson
Let me tell you, for a moment, I'll tell you. What's going on. Number one, Andy, I think rather prophetically, suggested that the Israelis not make this public. The administration was not in the public to be in a position to afford this. This made public. They've been contacts between in Ambassador Wolf, they've been frequent contacts between members of a State Department and the PLO

Arnold Foster
they didn't lie, that's the problem. There was a lie my friend

Randall Robinson
will you wait a minute? Will you wait a minute, it is an unnatural diplomacy? Indeed. That does not deal with one side of a conflict. I want to talk go back to a to a point that you just made.

David Susskind
Mr Robinson I want to get clear. It's my job to get clarity. Did he get fired because he lied, Andrew Young?

Randall Robinson
No, I don't think he did. I think I think he I think he got fired because it became he became too expensive for the administration to afford politically. No, I don't think he got fired.

Arnold Foster
Then why did you lay it on the Jews. Mr. Robinson

Randall Robinson
I didn't lay it on the Jews. I did not. I said. I said, I know. I said there's an important distinction to be made. I said that Israel made it public. And that created the situation. I do not think the American Jewish community was so directly involved.

Arnold Foster
Newsweek made it public, not Israel.

Randall Robinson
Let me go back to a point that

Howard Squadron
He went to see Yehuda Blum and he told him the story and said to him, if Israel would not make an issue of this, I think I might be able to ride it through. It's absolutely true and Blum said to him, I have to report this to my government, as really the difference is shown there. Andrew Yang conducted himself in a way where he felt that if he reported certain things to the State Department, for whatever reasons of tension he had with the State Department, they would not be well received, and so he didn't do so. And bloem said as most diplomats would I think you have to admit, Mr. Robinson, you know, I have an obligation to report whatever you're telling me, government

Randall Robinson
I think we are off on a false issue. I want to respond to what you said just a moment ago, you talked about the question of the displacement of Palestinians, by the establishment of the State of Israel. And I want to talk a little bit more

Arnold Foster
I never talked about that. I never said it

Randall Robinson
I want to talk a little bit more about the source of the of the problem, you seem to suggest that because the Arab world was so large, there was a place for the Palestinian refugees in Jordan and Syria and Lebanon and other places, without having any real appreciation for these people's attachment to the land that they lived on for 1000 years

Arnold Foster
and the Jews before

Randall Robinson
and saw the coming of Israel

Arnold Foster
and the Jews before

Randall Robinson
and saw the coming of Israel as an unfair putting upon on them.

David Susskind
Why the modern day embrace of the Palestinians suffering? When you've been strangly quiet

Randall Robinson
Well I'm glad you're I'm glad I'm glad. I'm glad you asked that question. I don't

David Susskind
Because Andrew Young get fired, have you thought of propitious time to?

Randall Robinson
Are you gonna ask the question and answer the question David

Howard Squadron
Mr. Robinson can you another question at the same time, because

Randall Robinson
I'm going to answer this one then. Thank you. You hold your question.

Howard Squadron
Do you think Israel should be a nation at all in that part of the world

Randall Robinson
I support Israel, Israel's right to exist

Howard Squadron
you know that before the 67 war

Randall Robinson
but let me answer his question, please

Howard Squadron
okay.

Randall Robinson
Why is it becoming an issue? I don't think for a moment that that this issue is any larger than under other foreign policy issues within the black community. We're concerned about salt. We're concerned about the Panama Canal Treaty we've spent since World War 220 $6 billion in the Middle East, and as as taxpayers, as people who die in war We have a stake and we're going to express ourselves on foreign policy. I as an Africa lobbyists, I'm particularly concerned because in our discussions of issues that we are most directly concerned with, we keep coming across the Middle East issues in this world is a seamless place. It is one place so that when we discuss South Africa, we see an Israel that has been the last nation in the world to support the mandatory arms embargo against South Africa and has given given South Africa all manner of weapons. We see in Rhodesia, a pass through the 11. Bell, helicopters, we're concerned about that. And we see a foreign assistance budget. We give Israel we have been giving Israel in economic assistance $785 million a year, we give a country like Nigeria, absolutely nothing and impoverished country. So that Israel alone gets twice as much as all of Sub Saharan Africa together in foreign assistance. So we see enormous disparities. We see now $1 billion, and weapons for Israel with a request for 1.6 A request for 1.6 in economic assistance. And yet we see 150,000 seater jobs cut in this country, largely for black Americans, because there is no money to go around. So that's that day.

David Susskind
Now, David, the hold it right there, we've got a pause, back right away.

INTERVIEW CONTINUES:

David Susskind
Okay Arnold, you were about to say?

Arnold Foster
See now, Mr. Robinson made delivered a very long speech. And there was a lot of rhetoric in it. And there are a lot of loopholes in it is selecting Israel, for its trade with South Africa is very significant. And I knew he would do it because he has written about it before. And so I traveled to get from the International Monetary Fund.

Randall Robinson
I didn't say trade, I said arm supply

Arnold Foster
of trade. I'll get supplies in a moment. Trade between Israel and South Africa, and between South Africa and the black African nations and the rest of the world. According to the International Monetary Fund, the United States in 1978. Did 14% of its exports to South Africa, the United Kingdom 11.4%. That's 4,700,000,000 black Africa did 4% 499 million with South Africa, Israel, one half of 1% 66 million. Now let's look at the inports. West Germany 20%. United Kingdom 16% United States 15%, a total of nearly $5 billion dollars, black Africa 3.2 for $329 million, Israel, less than one half of 1% with South Africa $28 million. Now, let me tell you something, if you don't know what I'm sure you do, Saudi Arabia supplies, South Africa with 25% of its oil needs. When was the last time you attacked South African Saudi Arabia, you give me one evidence of any meaningful armament to Israel the day after the 1977 UN resolution embargoed military trade. There are a couple of little ships that were sent some small guns and ammunition. It's virtually nothing. The fact is, if you want to begin to attack Mr. Robinson, you ought to begin to attack some of the problems in this country. Instead of sitting with Mr. Arafat, perhaps you ought to sit with the Ku Klux Klan and see whether or not you can bring them to any sense. My problem with what Reverend Lowry did, is that it was a mission of failure. It was counterproductive, it changed nothing. It encouraged the PLO violence, it undermined as Howard said the Egyptian Israel treaty. It weakened American foreign policy, and it's tried to undo everything that Mr. Carter tried to accomplish in instituting the beginnings of peace by a treaty between Egypt and Israel. And it's harmed the total peace effort by injecting into a finely begun peace negociation a band of murderers who are intent on discombobulating the Egyptian Israel treaty, or intent on overthrowing with Marxist support on ally Egypt, our intent in destroying the entire Middle East, including Israel. And I sit here to tell you that your view of what has happened in the last 30 years in the Middle East simply does not match the facts.

Joseph Lowery
So let me say this I I think we ought to try to see if we can establish some Givens. First of all, I think we have to agree that the Metis crisis does exist, and it does impact America. And it does impact black folks directly. severely, for example you talk about will take care of problems in this country. We met with President Carter near the end of 1978. To complain about his proposal to drastically reduce social programs designed to fight unemployment and blacks have a critically high rate of unemployment, designed to provide housing for low income persons health care, we were told and had to face very soberly the fact that those programs had to be reduced to fight inflation, while at the same time administration was adding $11.5 billion to the defense budget to the military budget. So we think we're taking care of matters at home, when we get involved in foreign policy. And we haven't just been involved in Middle East we've been involved in southern Africa, we've been involved in, in many places, but the Middle East at the moment happens to be perhaps the most potentially explosive situation in the world. So we're concerned about because we're involved because if America has a repression, the cause of what happens in the Mideast, black folks will have a depression, recession, even if it has a recession, black folks will have a deep praise America gets a bad cold, black folks will have pneumonia, we have already. So we are and we have a depression. You know, our unemployment rate is about four times the rate of whites. And if whites had the unemployment rate that blacks have now, the whole country would call it the depression but I think it won't be finished. Now, the other thing I think we have to establish as a given is that nobody has the right to determine how another person sees his mission. You know, I could care less what anybody thinks about how I exercise my mission. Our mission is based on the theology and philosophy of the aggressive pursuit of peace, and justice. And so we go into the all the world and my church goes into the all the we're all the world that calls were commissioned to do that. So we preach to Arafat, the fact that we preach to Arafat doesn't mean we endorse his behavior anymore. Then a preacher endorses sin when he preaches to sinners. So I completely reject, you know,

Howard Squadron
Did you visit with the Christians in southern Lebanon, who are

Joseph Lowery
I certainly did almost got killed going to East Beirut, to meet with Piere Jamal, who heads the phalanges, so called Christian party over the objection of the PLO, I would remind you, they objected very strongly. Our mission was to preach to all the parties and bring to them the challenge to turn their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. And I'm sorry, if somebody objects to that, by the way, let me vent to the other side

David Susskind
The mission failed.

Joseph Lowery
That's your interpretation. I think the mission was very effective.

Howard Squadron
You think Arafat's changed his view

Joseph Lowery
that that's not the point

Arnold Foster
He's not going to bomb any more children

Joseph Lowery
I hope he doesn't. But I also hope that Israel and I'm sorry, we didn't get to carry the same message that Mr. Bagan who refused to meet with us, although he met with racists, apartheid, Varsha, but we hope also that it

Howard Squadron
was an official of his government, Israel. By the same official, I'm worried you may go preach your mission where you please prime ministers and heads of state of the world. I do not expect to meet with me just on my demand. Maybe you do

Randall Robinson
Now, you know, you know, as well as we all do that there's precedent for private diplomacy in this country. Nobody criticized Allard Lowenstein when he went down and met with Bishop Moser he met with Ian Smith and they came back to this country. No body has criticize the the Freedom House when they sent monitors down to monitor those, those false elections in Rhodesia.

Howard Squadron
Mr. Robinson no one is criticizing private diplomacy. let it be clear what we are criticizing

Randall Robinson
that Blacks ought to stay at home

Howard Squadron
No Nobody said that. Nobody said that. Now, I want to tell you something take back, I want to tell you something, I'd like to hear it. And sad to me to hear that because you know, I believe you perceive that we did say that. And I want to be clear that we didn't say neither Arnold or I said it or anybody in the Jewish community has said that the black community in this country should not inject itself into foreign affairs should not express itself on the best interest of the United States and foreign matters, nor that blacks in this country should not visit in foreign countries and carry whatever message they want to let us be clear about what we are saying. We are saying that the mission that you carried out to the PLO was first of all, a mission that was media inspired. If Andrew Young had never resigned, you would never have done it. Secondly, that it was not reflective of the mainstream of the black community in this country at all. Notwithstanding all the media attention, you got that in fact, the NAACP, and the Urban League with their huge budgets and huge memberships. The leaders of those organizations have expressed themselves as in total disagreement with you. Thirdly, Please finish. Joe, let me finish because you insisted I let you finish. And I did. But you didn't. I did. I made let me say third. Let me say third

Joseph Lowery
No I'm not going to let you finish. I think you ought to let black leaders speak for themselves. I don't think you are qualified to speak for the Urban League, or the NAACP anymore that I'm qualified to speak for the Anti information act

Howard Squadron
Joe That's that's that's that's your that's that's, that's an interesting observation, I would not presume to speak for the Urban League, or the NAACP or the SCLC. But I think I can quote, what it is that the leaders of those organizations have said, that's public knowledge. And that's all I did. That's all I did. And I could also quote and I could also quote. Am I saying something that's bothering you, let me finish. Let me I'm trying to if you would stop interrupting I might. Alright, I'll give it a try. Let me let me say that the the fact is that the mission was itself an counterproductive mission, as Arnold has already said, You did not only did you not get Mr. Arafat to change his view, but you lent to Mr. Arafah, to kind of credibility and strength that really is not helpful in trying to eliminate terrorism and violence. And finally, and I've said this before, but I want to say it again. It is not in the interest of this country, not at all, for Israel to be isolated or abandoned. I want to say something that Mr. Robinson said it is not a matter of Israel and South Africa. There are 19 nations in Africa that a black nations the trade with South Africa, why are they not attacked by virtual muscle? Why be the excuses they for them? It's necessity and a small amount of trade Israel don't have is somehow terrible. But what England does and Germany does, somehow it doesn't use it.

Randall Robinson
You're wrong. I can't let you go on if you're telling untruths.

Howard Squadron
I'm not telling un truth. I never tell him true. I may have a difference of opinion with I never tell him.

Randall Robinson
If you are suggesting that we have not criticized West Germany, the United States Great Britain, France in the same sweep and wash that we criticize Israel for contacts with South Africa, you are wrong.

Howard Squadron
I am suggesting you don't

Arnold Foster
It hasn't been seen if you've done on it, you've done privately in a closet, Mr. Robinson.

Joseph Lowery
That maybe because the media which you may control hasn't bothered to report it. It's very interesting how it's very interesting.

David Susskind
You can't speak at once

Arnold Foster
Reverend Lowery has now sunk down to the level of blatant anti semitism in suggesting that the Jews control the press

Joseph Lowery
No I said that media which you control

Arnold Foster
I never thought that's what I said. But by now, I never thought I would hear that from you Reverend Lowery

Joseph Lowery
No, what I said Was it maybe the media you control and read? That's just not reported? I stand by that, to my knowledge

David Susskind
Is that television or newspaper

Joseph Lowery
whatever media whatever. The media you control, you read which bulletin from the American Jewish Committee?

Randall Robinson
Well, let's not get let's not get away from the way, Joe just for a second. It's an absurd point

Joseph Lowery
Your sides had more than your share.

Howard Squadron
I want you to know, Mr. Robinson, you and I are on the same side as far as Joe Lowery's concerned

Joseph Lowery
The I think it's very interesting that the white churches, former attorney general, this nation, other mission groups, have all gone to the Mideast, have all met with Arafat. And yet, when a black group goes, it becomes a terrible, counterproductive, almost unAmerican act. And I just have to raise a serious question as to why that's such a genius objection to outgoing calling upon them to put down their swords to recognize the issue why it suddenly becomes such an offensive thing

Arnold Foster
because you were talking to a man who threatened to chop the hands off President Carter. Chop the hands off Mr. Bagan and chop the hands off Mr. Sedat, you're talking man, you're talking to an animal, you are not talking to a human being.

Joseph Lowery
All the other people. Why didn't you object to them talking?

Howard Squadron
Well, Joe, if if Ramsey Clark, we're on this program right now, in Ramsey Clark, as a man I know quite well, I would say exactly the same things about his visit, as I'm saying about yours. Counter productive, unhelpful Of course, the fact is, you managed to attract a lot of media attention and he attracted none. And the reason you attracted a lot of media attention is because you're following up on Andrew Young's resignation immediately with this matter. You've apparently decided that it is an issue you want to use and to present. Obviously, you have the right to do that. We have the right to say to you that we think it's counterproductive, unhelpful, destructive of the social fabric in this country destructive of an alliance that has been very helpful to this country, not between blacks and Jews, and not because blacks and Jews and further I must say to you what I've said before, and what I think we started this program off with the alliance between blacks and Jews is not going to be destroyed because of that. And the reason for that is because the mainstream black organizations and the mainstream Jewish organizations and neither community as monolithic, are going to continue to cooperate on the things that are truly important for them in this country. And they are not going to be distracted by this matter.

David Susskind
Gentlemen, we'll be back.

INTERVIEW RESUMES:

David Susskind
you manage to take the whole problem of black Jewish confrontation, which is quite serious and alarming, and pose it entirely in terms of the Middle East? It's larger than that because it was exploded it

Joseph Lowery
I think is larger than that. But I think that that issue is so explosive and so emotional, particularly where these gentlemen are concerned is impossible, discuss it without

Howard Squadron
it's true that Jews are very sensitive on this issue, when you're very sensitive about Ku Klux Klan activity in the south,

Joseph Lowery
Well I'm very sensitive about affirmative action, but you don't want to discuss

Howard Squadron
Oh no, I'm willing to discuss, quotas as I said, at the very beginning. And I said we ought during this program, I think we should I think we discuss why the black community and the Jewish community have a different view on this subject.

Randall Robinson
There's another assumption here, the assumption is that to the extent that blacks or anybody else disagrees with a position on the Middle East, or that somehow the long standing Alliance in this country is undermined. And there's a perfect absurdity of that one would hope that, that that relationship is made more healthy by constructive disagreement. I am, have been concerned about the Middle East for a long time as an outside observer, concerned about the basic comparative equities. I am concerned about half million refugees in Syria and Lebanon, a half million more than half million refugees, and in Jordan and other places. The question is one of just basic fairness to you. I've always been interested in the right have

Arnold Foster
you seen it? Let me try it.

Randall Robinson
I haven't asked a question

Arnold Foster
You pose a good question

Randall Robinson
I haven't asked the question.

Arnold Foster
I thought, you asked

Randall Robinson
let me finish the question

Arnold Foster
and an issue of blacks. Because every time you get into disagreement with us, you hide behind your color. We have not criticized what Lowery did, or what Jackson did, or what Young did as blacks. We criticized what they did as American citizens. You are the fellas who raised the question of the Color

Randall Robinson
You interupted me

Arnold Foster
Ok When young when young resigned, because he lied. And because Vance said it was intolerable for him to lie. There were 200 black leaders who came together and who decided that young was fired, which he wasn't because he was black, which was totally irrelevant. Mr. Robinson did it here again, he says every time that he confronts an issue that the Jews are concerned about the question of his color is raised. And I say to you, if you examine the record, you will find that when Mr. Lowery says, why can't I as a black man go to the Middle East and see Mr. Arafat when 20 other entities have gone and done that, who's raised the question about his being black?

Randall Robinson
I didn't say that at all. I was about to ask you all together. Different question.

Joseph Lowery
No, I think I lower the race question was interjected. When Mr. squadron in attempting to divide the black community says it's all right for you to go because the mainstream blacks are against you're going he raised not because he raised that they all raise the racial issue. Now I want I want to issue I want to set it back because what does what the other blacks think about what I do have what somebody else does have to do with the issues

Arnold Foster
Becuase you said as a black man we resisted your right to sit with Arafat, and we didn't resist the right of some white groups to meet with Arafat. You raised the issue.

Joseph Lowery
haven't I haven't heard you attack. I haven't heard you attack any other persons who went.

David Susskind
I think he said if Ramsey Clarck were here

Joseph Lowery
Well Ramsey Clark was was an A former Attorney General got attention when he wit and Mr. Squadron is president of the American Jewish Congress could have gotten attention in reaction to Mr. Clark's going but let me go back to what I want to say

Howard Squadron
He didn't say anything publicly about you're going Joe after you went if you noticed, but if you want me to say it, I'll say it right in here. And now I think Both you and Ramsey Clark were wrong, anything going on Jesse Jackson?

Joseph Lowery
And I think and I find you and I think you're wrong, for objecting to Americans exercising their right. And for some of us responsibility to Try to work to resolve a problem which impacts our lives. But let me go back to the question.

Howard Squadron
It's not a questions of exercising rights

Joseph Lowery
It is a question

Howard Squadron
whether this is a sensible thing to do you have the right.

Joseph Lowery
judgment on your part. That's it's your judgment. That is not since I can only expect anybody else that it is sensible. But the point I'm trying to raise is that beneath our mission, is the concern that that can be no peace in the Middle East, until the Palestinian question is resolved. Secondly, that it works to the good of Israel, as much as to the Palestinians to have peace in the Middle East. Israel is an island in an Arab sea. And it seems to me that ultimately the question of the security of Israel rest upon its friendly relations and peaceful relations with its neighbors. Now, that's the premise and those are the premises on which we've inserted ourselves into the equation. And I just fail to see how we can approach the issue without recognizing first that those are our objectives. And I hope you would share them

Howard Squadron
Your premises can be perfectly right in the premises that you have stated a premises that I would have no quarrel with. The problem is that having stated those premises, you then have to proceed to see what the facts of the situation are. And you have to decide what is going to be productive and what is going to be counterproductive. And I say to you, with all due respect, you have an absolute right to make a trip like that you have an absolute right to have the media follow you. You have no right to demand the Prime Minister Bagan. See you he has a right not to see you. And I have a right to say that what you have done is counterproductive. And I have. I also have a right to say to you that the reason it's counterproductive is because the PLO situation and the Palestinian situation are different, because the PLO itself is a band of assassins, because you are not likely to accomplish anything except give them credibility. And most of all, and this is really the most important part of it. Because you are undermining American foreign policy which is leading us towards a peace in that area. Very important for us to understand that

Joseph Lowery
I don't think American foreign policy is leading us anywhere near to the resolution of the Mideast crisis.

Howard Squadron
Do you think that Egypt Israel peace agreement is not a step forward?

Joseph Lowery
I think it because it has stopped where it is stopped. It is unrealistic, not real, not eating, it will not resolve the issue because it does not propose to bring the Palestinians into the equation. It is not addressed. It was not addressed to herself to the question of Palestinian into the equasion

Howard Squadron
Very simply call for participation in Palestinian representatives

Joseph Lowery
Jordan, Florida, neither Jordan or Syria, any of the other nations are willing to participate

Arnold Foster
You're talking about the Palestinians now. You ought to read the Egyptian Israel Treaty, which was negotiated at Camp David to see that there's an intent to involve the Palestinians

Joseph Lowery
You really are interpreting it the way you read it.

Arnold Foster
So many words

Howard Squadron
specific invitation to Jordan,

Joseph Lowery
but they did not participate. Well,

Arnold Foster
I know but I'm going to go in

Joseph Lowery
look at the ingredient and see why they refuse to participate. And the other question

Howard Squadron
Why did they refuse?

Joseph Lowery
Well, you asked them I think you know why they didn't participate tell us they don't they don't think it contributes to a just peace. In the middle

Howard Squadron
No I'll tell you why, they're afraid that their heads will get shot off by the PLO

Joseph Lowery
the nation of Jordan is a free? Yes. I mean, who's a nation of Jordan won't let the PLO come in and operate any why should they be afraid of the PLO,

Arnold Foster
terrified they saw what happened to poor Lebanon didn't did is

Joseph Lowery
it is not it is not realistic

Arnold Foster
broken Syria hasn't it, the PLO

Howard Squadron
local Palestinian representative certainly don't dare put their heads up for fear of getting it shot off

David Susskind
But I must put my head up and taken a minute off, pause.

INTERVIEW CONLUDES:

David Susskind
You wanted to tell us

Joseph Lowery
The PLO is not going away. They are a factor in the Mideast crisis. And we have to deal with them. In response to our challenge to recognize a nationhood of Israel around a question of resolution Security Council resolution 242. They say they will support 242 If it is paired with General Assembly resolution 3236. Now 242 talks about the sovereignty of all states in the region 3236 talks about the human rights and self determination of the Palestinians. If those are put together the PLO according to Mr. Tsutsi, who spoke on behalf of Mr. Arafat, they will recognize 242

Howard Squadron
And how about recognizing Israel's right to exist

Joseph Lowery
242 does recognize the right to exist

Howard Squadron
Nevermind the Joe you have just put together two separate demands that have been made of the PLO as if they are one demand. I would like to take them apart again. They have been asked to recognize Israel's right to exist you yourself have said on this program and many times publicly that you challenged Arafat to do that, that has not been forthcoming. It is not

David Susskind
Jesse Jackson said he as Arafat

Howard Squadron
it is not a very large demand. It's a kind of minimal demand that before they expect somebody to sit down with them, they recognize that they are not going to be proceeding to exterminate them. I must point out to you that this entire issue, which now revolves around the West Bank, and self determination of the Palestinians, existed before Israel, ever control the Westbank. The 67 War is not the time when the PLO came into existence. It is not the time when the destruction of Israel was first enunciated because of Israel's victory in that war, before 67, Israel had none of the West Bank, none of the Golan Heights, none of the Sinai, these demands to destroy Israel in the from the Arab world were continuous, and the PLO already existed,

Howard Squadron
and the PLO would go away. If you didn't encourage them back into existance. Who wants the PLO

Randall Robinson
Are they demands to destroy,

Arnold Foster
Saudi Arabia has been feeding multi millions of dollars to the PLO to ensure that it keeps looking at Israel. Syria is bankrupt because of the PLO, Lebanon doesn't exist because of the PLO, Jordan was almost destroyed by the PLO, Mr. Sadat doesn't want the PLO, any Palestinian on the west bank of debt dares to stand up and speak against the PLO as assassinated. The fact is that Egypt and Israel with the help of Washington finally succeeded in getting on the road to peace, and push the PLO aside, the PLO might go away Lowery. If you don't put your arm around and hug him and say we shall overcome

Joseph Lowery
I've got to express gratitude for all the power that Mr. Foster tributes to me. And I'm humbled especially in the face of the demeaning remarks made by Mr. squadron. But the truth of the matter is that the PLO is not going away, no matter how much you wring your hands out, if you are away, they're not going away, whether I meet with them or not, they're not going away, because they do represent a substantial portion of the Palestinian the PLO, the way to disarm the PLO is to bring them to the bargaining table and let them participate in the negotiations when Israel's right they say they will recognize that

Howard Squadron
I want to know what to do we bring them to the bargaining table, whether or not they recognized

Joseph Lowery
I will bring them to the bargaining table to disarm them, I would bring them to the bargaining table because it takes away their reason for violence

Randall Robinson
One thinks you bring them to the bargaining table to the to the discuss your stat, let's let's face it, it is right to exist if PLO if the PLO discusses and accepts Israel's right to exist, they've made a major concession. After all, the PLO at first was after a secular democratic state in which Arabs and Jews in Palestine could share power. Now, the British, of course, supported that in the white paper of 39. What happens with the 650,000 refugees in Syria and Lebanon, what happens to the property and the homes that they left in Haifa and other places?

Arnold Foster
Mr Robinson Israel Doesn't exist by leave of the PLO, by their agreement talking about I'm talking about doesn't need the PLO's right to exist, support. Israel lives despite the PLO,

Randall Robinson
Israel needs peace.

Arnold Foster
Israel doesn't need the PLO, Israel wants peace. The PLO refuses to discuss Israel's existence. It wants to discuss how Israel should be obliterated and removed, wiped out of existence and replaced by a secular state. It doesn't want Israel to live. Don't you understand this

Joseph Lowery
It's rhetoric, Mr. Foster? And all of us know

David Susskind
what's rhetoric

Joseph Lowery
The PLO talk about driving into the sea,

Arnold Foster
it shouldn't be taken seriously.

Joseph Lowery
Israel does not need the PLO to exist. Why do we take a chance on continuing to violence continue to lose lives before they bring them to the table? They want to make the PLO?

Joseph Lowery
The only question is, how many lives are the leaders willing to sacrifice before they come to the resolution

Arnold Foster
What is the rhetoric of the PLO has not been carried out by the PLO, except as the

Randall Robinson
moving to the Palestinian cause, putting this PLO aside for a second,

Arnold Foster
I can't put that aside. You put the PLO aside

Randall Robinson
Let me ask you the question, because it's a question I'm concerned about. Don't you have some concern? Don't you think there's some sense of some some right appropriateness of righteous indignation on the parts of those Palestinians who have been displaced to so many places should they call Palestine home

Arnold Foster
Sure do. What's it got to do with the PLO?

Randall Robinson
It's got a good deal to do with

Arnold Foster
it has nothing to do with the PLO. The PLO is trying to destroy Israel, you're not talking about how to issue how about an issue that was funded by the Egyptian Israel treaty,

Howard Squadron
and by the resolutions of the United Nations that they have always been asked to recognize

Randall Robinson
how would that problem be solved? If those people want to return to Israel. And they want a secular democratic state that represents Israel.

Howard Squadron
Mr. Robinson, is that your, your recommendation? You're telling me?

Randall Robinson
I'm asking your question. I'm talking about 650,000. In revenue

Howard Squadron
what's your position?

Randall Robinson
My God, it wouldn't be constructive for us to prejudge negotiations, You're suggesting

Howard Squadron
I'm asking you whether you believe that there should be a secular democratic state, as you know. And I find that an exercise in semantics that deserves a little attention sometime, but I won't bother with it. Now. I want to know whether you believe that a secular democratic state should replace the current state of Israel. Is that your view?

Randall Robinson
I don't think it's likely.

Howard Squadron
Is it your view that they think is bad?

Randall Robinson
I don't think it's worth discussing.

Howard Squadron
Well, you said it's helpful to our television audience to know where you're coming, if you will, let your I'm coming. If you let me finish where I'm coming from is that Israel has a right to exist, as it was put into existence by the United Nations resolution of 1947. There's an Arab neighbors, that it's Arab new the Palestinians have a right to that it's Arab neighbors who refer to the Palestinians. I want to tell you that if you go back to that in the United Nations resolution, since you like to deal in long history, you will find that that resolution provided and one at both for both a Jewish state and state provided over RF territory 1/3 of the population Arab nation was rejected the Arab nations caused the war provided it provided Palestinian providers over half of peladon to 1/3 of the population. Whoa, took away the Palestinians. That's 1/3 was largely immigrant population. Mr. Robinson I have to conclude you would like a secular democratic state.

David Susskind
Yes, he would like a secular democratic state but it seems impractical at the moment. That's what I take his position to be whole it would come right back.

SUSSKIND CLOSES SHOW:

David Susskind
I thank you for coming and I thank you for a stimulating conversation. And please join us again next week at the same time till then good night.