Historic Films Stock Footage Archive: NT-3120

00:01:19 0	Show slate. The Eleventh Hour - #120, Juries. Rec: 1/30/89
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00:01:35 16.46	Funding for the Eleventh Hour by announcer and overlay on The Eleventh Hour graphic.
00:01:46 27.65	The Eleventh Hour graphic and show opener.
00:02:09 50.67	Host Robert Lipsyte in studio welcomes viewers and talks about the topic of today's show. A jury case in The Bronx, New York involving criminal charges against a drug dealer and shooter of several police officers. Case in fact about Bronx juries more likely to acquit criminal offenders and more likely to award large sums to people suing for example, their doctors.
00:03:06 107.05	Host Lipsyte introduces first guest, Howard Goldfluss, former Bronx State Supreme Court Justice.
00:03:20 120.97	INTERVIEW: Robert Lipsyte: Did the Larry Davis verdict surprise you? Or are you beyond being surprised? Howard Goldfluss Nothing a jury does in Bronx County or any other county surprises me. Robert Lipsyte You've been in the Bronx too long? Howard Goldfluss Well, I believe that we have a tendency to state that juries are predictable. And they are not predictable. juries, I believe, and I found out irrespective of what the background of these jurors are, take their jobs very, very seriously. Having said that, we also live under a sort of a myth that when a judge tells the jury, be completely objective, get rid of all your prejudices and your biases and your pre conceptions about anything. That that is going to happen automatically. It's a jury of the peers. The judge instructs the jury, don't talk to your fellow jurors don't read the newspapers when you go home, don't watch the case on television. And we can only hope that they conform to the court's directions. Robert Lipsyte Okay, Judge. let's not move because we're going to get on with our mini trial.
00:04:56 217.03	Cut to Host Lipsyte offset - outdoors sitting on park bench with Eddie Corbett, African American wounded vet and juror on the Larry Davis trial.
00:04:59 220.11	INTERVIEW Robert Lipsyte: one, of course these police officers were shot. But more important than that, that Larry Davis is a bad guy. And even you would admit that. Eddie Corbett precisely i would i would i would emphatically state that we thought of him as a as a criminal. Robert Lipsyte I mean, yet you let him walk. Eddie Corbett We only interpreted the law, as we saw it. Not the fact that, oh, he shot nine police officers. We felt that one the police fired the first shot. evidence showed in our opinion that the police fired the first shot, but the people of the city you know, they made several statements in the newspapers. And they had several shows and they discuss that we didn't do our job. We misinterpreted the law. Robert Lipsyte Yeah, but they also called you racist, and that must have hurt Eddie Corbett and hurt her deeply. Matter of fact, I think that was the most hurting thing that took place. Because the five months that we were together, not one person, not one person in that jury room ever mentioned anything about? Well, there was a bunch of white police officers and they want to kill this black kid, because you have some good police officers out here. And then you also have some bad police officers out here. Robert Lipsyte You left your life experience at the courtroom door. Eddie Corbett I left my life experience before I went into that when I left home, that's where it stayed Robert Lipsyte in terms of telling it like it is. What is the message that the Bronx jury can tell the city Eddie Corbett I feel that we can tell the city in no uncertain terms that we are ordinary people, we want to go back to our lives, live our lives the way we have been living it before this trial took place. We don't want the city to feel that the people of the South Bronx are just a bunch of racists, because you have racists all over you have racists down here on Park Avenue. We have racists in Westchester County, but we just want them to know that the city called us and out of over 1000 people or more. We 12 people 12 human beings stood and say, Okay, we'll give our time. We are partaking the system and do what the system asks us to do. Robert Lipsyte Why was the jury black and Hispanic Eddie Corbett that you would have to ask the prosecution and the defense? Because they were I mean, numerous amount of white people there who could have sat on that jury, and who refused to sit on the jury. And they say, well, we'll let them do it. You know, if it goes this way? Well, to say, well, it was a racist thing. If they went another way, if we said, okay, Larry Davis is guilty. Well, he was judged by his peers Robert Lipsyte You think the white people were knocked off the jury or didn't want to serve? Eddie Corbett They didn't want to serve? They didn't they? I mean, it was a line from the judge's chambers to the door. Were they any when the judge asked anyone here who do not want to serve on this jury for any reason? You should have saw I mean, the whole room got up
00:08:38 439.34	INTERVIEW CONTINUES: Robert Lipsyte Do you feel it? This jury black street smarts sophisticated in the ways of the streets and of the police? is a better jury than you will find in most places in the Greater New York area. Eddie Corbett No, no, I feel that for jury do their job. They go in there to be fair, I think that even if it's a white jury, given the evidence that was presented to us Robert Lipsyte to with this with Larry Davis would have been convicted in Westchester. Eddie Corbett If the jury went to be fair, I don't think so. Robert Lipsyte Then how did this develop this this kind of label on the Bronx jury as being anti cop, always in favor of the defendant, particularly if he's a young black male? Eddie Corbett for someone to make that kind of statement? I would say that they were vet being very unfair, because all right, look at the Eleanor bumpurs case. Take the Michael Stewart case. Take the Glover case. Police were all acquitted of those charges. So if that's the case, then why weren't they say charged with murder? Hey, you have a 67 year old woman hand shot off? What what further data did she present to the police? Robert Lipsyte Do you think that the labels that have been put on the Bronx jury are racist labels being put on by white cops, white prosecutors, a white system? Eddie Corbett I think a combination of all three. And I think that they're doing it because they don't live. Most of the police often serve in the Bronx don't live in the Bronx. And I think that's something that shouldn't be addressed. An officer who live or in in works in this city. She don't live in the city. Robert Lipsyte Mr. Corbett, do you have the sense of the Bronx as an occupied territory? Eddie Corbett Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, more policing in the Bronx in the South Bronx per capita than any place in the city. You don't have that many police officers down on Park Avenue. Robert Lipsyte Well, knowing those things that you know, don't you then bring those negative feelings towards cops into the jury room? Eddie Corbett Listen, my family lived in the south. And they were treated very badly in the south. And do you know what? I shed my blood for this country? Whereas some people would not say why should I fight for a system that held my people to a position of worse than being assertion and in medieval Europe, they were slaves. So, if I will forget that, then I can forget what they do to me in the South Bronx, I live there. I see what's going on every day. Every day you hear gunshots, you see police cars. And believe you me no police officer, no police officer at all have the right to be shot down in the street by anyone, for whatever purpose. However, police officers must understand that they are sworn officers to uphold the law to protect the people and defend the people not to harass us, just because we are black, just because we're Hispanic, just because we are not of the same economic, socio economic background that they are. Robert Lipsyte Well, I mean, but what you just said, is the feeling that people have that you brought into that courtroom, and that in letting Larry Davis go, you were sending a message out to the city, we will not be harassed, we will not be taken advantage of we will not be treated badly in our own country. Eddie Corbett More or less? Well, that's that's not a fact. That's precisely what I'm saying. Why should we because we are disenfranchised, disadvantaged and educated not because of our own data because we want to be, but because the system have dealt with us in such a fashion that we are caused to be this way.
00:13:33 734.45	Interview concludes. Host Robert Lipsyte back in the studio introduces his next guest, Criminal Defense Attorney Ted Wells joining Howard Goldfluss on the sofa.
00:13:45 746.6	INSERT INTERVIEW: Robert Lipsyte: juror to you. Ted Wells I think he does at the same time, I think he is representative of most jurors, I think you have to sit back and understand that it's a very difficult job to be a juror. We take people out of their communities, put them in a jury box and really give them the hot potatoes of society. And we ask them to perform a very important community service and to be bound by certain rules that the judge gives to them. And I think it's fundamentally unfair to put jurors in that position, had them do their job. And then after they return a verdict that is unpopular, criticize them for it. And I would just say one other thing. I do not represent Drexel Burnham. I represent a company by the name of Princeton Newport, which is involved in the Drexel Burnham case. Robert Lipsyte Okay. Let me let me ask you this. There has been a lot of criticism of Bronx jurors, much of which I guess you would feel is unfair. That is correct. Yeah. But statistically, they do seem to give larger awards to plaintiffs, and they're more likely to acquit defendants, particularly defendants involved with a police would lead people to believe there's a different there's a different makeup here. Ted Wells I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that there is a different makeup. I will fight very vigorously against any allegation that Bronx jurors are unfair. There's a different makeup in the sense that I believe most Bronx jurors are more open minded with respect to allegations that police officers or prosecutors are not necessarily telling the truth. All of the time. There's an open mindedness that cause the jury in Larry Davis case to be willing to listen to Bill Kunstler's argument that Larry Davis was defending himself. That does not mean that because the police officers were white and Larry Davis was black that if so facto, Larry Davis was going to be acquitted. But without question, I think the Bronx jury came to the jury box in his jury in particular with an open mind Robert Lipsyte let's get to that because that's that's key and the judge is nodding. Is it is it the air of the Bronx, I mean, what what makes them open minded. Howard Goldfluss If I may, you know, you keep on referring To the Bronx. Can I call you, Bob? Please? Okay. You keep on referring to the Bronx. And you know, there's a little river in the South Bronx from which the jurors have picked, they go to the Bronx County Courthouse. And across that river in the Upper East Side, they pull people from the same economic background. And they go to New York court. And those same people are sitting in a jury. They just happened to be divided by a little river. The point that I find some problem with is that we tend to generalize and say, Well, these people come from the Bronx, so we put them in a box and classify them under certain on a certain position. Look, we have as of now, the Steinbeck jury is still out. That jury is now trying a man who is practically Lynch material. Yeah. But that is a wonderful job Robert Lipsyte that's in Manhattan, and we're talking specifically about Davis and about Bronx, in particular. The point is that statistically, Bronx juries do seem to react in a specific way. And a lot of people feel that it's because of life experience, because they may be closer to what's really happening in that rub between law enforcement and people and say, wealthier people in Manhattan.
00:17:50 991.76	INTERVIEW CONTINUES: Ted Wells But but there's nothing wrong with that. No, no, no first thing in defense lawyer tells a jury, you're not in a box. Sure. No, no, no, I understand it. But what I do want to emphasize is that there's nothing wrong with a jury bringing his or her life experiences into the jury box. In fact, you are instructed, and they don't forget your life experiences, you are instructed to use your common sense. And to the extent that your life experiences have taken into account the fact that there is police corruption, and that the system does not always work. I think without question Bronx jurors are more apt, again, to be open minded to allegations that the truth is not necessarily as the prosecutor portrayed. Robert Lipsyte That's a very good point. And I don't think that we ever started out saying, I mean, we're putting the Bronx jury on trial, which means that we want to come out with a fair verdict at the end, as you would to the point being that there's a kind of a sophistication in thinking that Larry Davis was defending himself against corrupt cops were in most parts of New York, and in most parts of America, the reaction might very well be Larry Davis is a bad guy. If he didn't do this, if he shouldn't go to jail for this, he shouldn't go to jail for something, you know. So let's get him for something Ted Wells what that says is is at Bronx jurors are more apt to be fair, Robert Lipsyte If that's the case, then let's talk about that. Howard Goldfluss Well, first, before you go to that, you know, you just hit on the reality of something, you know, you're not going to get the same makeup of a jury in Bronx County in New York County as you would possibly in Texas or Mississippi, Robert Lipsyte or in Westchester and Connecticut, or anywhere, Howard Goldfluss Or possibly Westchester, Connecticut. Or Long Island. All right. Now, the purpose of this jury system is that a person who is charged with a crime goes before a jury of his peers. Now his peers does mean in general terms, the community in the in the forest in the forest, the community, which he comes, my only objection was before to categorizing the Bronx jury is different from the New York jury it comes from the same class of people and and we keep an advisor Robert Lipsyte to protective of people who live in the Bronx, Howard Goldfluss I'm protective of juries, period. Let me say this Robert Lipsyte adding to what you just said, Of Corbett, the man that we saw on the tape on more than one occasion, as fine, upstanding pillar of the community as you're going to meet New York has been hassled by white cops just you know, sitting double parked somewhere, and has his own kind of feeling Howard Goldfluss and those life experiences. As we know, when the judge does say call on your life experience the issue questions of fact, the questions of law, the jurist if they're true to their role, Robert Lipsyte but on these kind of cases, to how does that affect the awards, the judgments, the you know, these these plaintiffs settlements, which are so large, Howard Goldfluss you know, you know, we have to be realistic. A person who receives very serious injuries. A person receives injuries due to the negligence of a defendant, who, its life, life taking not perhaps not death, but a living death. injuries in which both legs are amputated, serious injuries in which lifestyle is diminished to a point where we shrink at heart would happen. Is there enough money to compensate that individual? If you find fault with a juror who sits there one of those six people who once having to establish that there has been negligence, and once having established this person is ruined physically for the rest of their life? Why should there be any objection to an adequate settlement out adequate, of course, is in the minds of the beholder Robert Lipsyte have to stop and why do I feel that I'm on trial? Right? Well, that's, Howard Goldfluss that's the way it should be. But Robert Lipsyte before we're joined by our third guest, a jury consultant, we'd like to renew an old memory of what jurors was supposed to be like, Henry Fonda in 12, Angry Men.
00:22:13 1254.6	Host Lipsyte cuts to a clip from the film, "Twelve Angry Men" starring the actor, Henry Fonda
00:23:11 1312.83	Clip ends and Host Lipsyte introduces another guest, Sociologist, David Davis of the firm Litigation Science.
00:23:32 1333.91	INSERT INTERVIEW: David Davis: stereotype what the Bronx is about the Bronx isn't just the South Bronx, it's also Riverdale, and city Island, and throgs neck and other parts of the Bronx as well. So we should be very clear what we're talking about when we say a Bronx jury Robert Lipsyte what we're talking about these statistics, which are not speculation are not theoretical. Why are juries in the Bronx more likely to acquitted defendant? Why are they more likely to give more money to a plaintiff? David Davis What we've found in the research that we've done litigation sciences in the Bronx is that, to a great extent you are dealing with people who as the juror you interviewed, disenfranchised, and to a great extent these jurors have what you might call a learned helplessness. These are people to a great extent, use that word a lot to see things happening to them. They see themselves as victims of circumstances. And in many instances they are they are people who are hassled by the police. They are people who see their buildings burned down who see them themselves losing jobs. As a result of that there's a great tendency for them to want to identify with the victim. The victim of a civil suit might be someone who says they've been hurt in a criminal case, it could be someone who says, I am here because I'm a victim of circumstances. And in all those instances, you're getting great identification between the jury and the person who's either on trial or the plaintiff in the case. Robert Lipsyte So they are bringing real baggage into the drawer. David Davis Absolutely. We found jurors always bring pre existing attitudes, beliefs, knowledge experience, and those are critical in how they make decisions. Robert Lipsyte Well, I feel a little better now. Because I've been under attack by the judge and the defense lawyer that would lead us to believe that these people are different. Ted Wells I don't think I ever said they were not different. I've fought very hard to emphasize that I believe they are fundamentally fair in how they apply the facts to the law. But without question, I think the way they analyze the facts, the way they sift the facts is impacted by their life experiences such that I believe Bronx jurors are really more apt to be fair in that they do not come into the jury box with with a presumption that the prosecutor or the police are necessarily correct. They wait to hear what the facts are, Robert Lipsyte well learned helplessness kind of a sense of oppression or a besieged mentality. Does that make one fairer? David Davis It's not really a question of fairness. It's a subjective definition of the way the world works. Another jury in the Bronx and other Larry Davis during the Bronx might have come to a completely different decision. It's not really a question of right or wrong. It's the decision which which is that's that's what you're left with. Robert Lipsyte Right. But I mean, the point is, if you feel that the world is dumping on you, then you are more likely to see a Larry Davis As a victim of circumstance, and find reasons why he may well not be guilty, Howard Goldfluss no question about it. And that and even in the even in the statement of that juror, he indicated that he referred to prior cases involving police officers. And he indicated clearly that it had an effect on him. He didn't say it in so many words. My point is, you can't expect a jury to be perfect. You can expect the jury, as I said before, to go into that jury room and not be affected by any biases or prejudices, or you can call it life expectancy. And that's why that's why his services are so important. Because he, he tells us, he tells him a council at that council table. My feeling is and that's what if I defense counsel, that's what I want to hear. My feeling is that he's not going to vote for your side, pure and simple. Let's get away with the fancy language. Let's get down to it. That's what he's there for. That's why he makes the big bucks. And, and and the and the reason for it is that so we're just writing Robert Lipsyte We'll have to leave it there. This is the 11th hour. I'm Robert Lipsyte.
00:27:30 1571.09	Interviews conclude. Host Lipsyte announces The Eleventh Hour and introduces himself.
00:27:35 1576.71	Show credits over scene from the film Twelve Angry Men.
00:28:02 1603.14	Charitable contributions by announcer and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
00:28:11 1612.48	Reel ends.