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NET Reporter, Andrew Stern on a balcony overlooking a foggy London talking into camera about Republican Senator Barry Goldwater's nomination for U.S. President and the European outcry over it, the topic of today's program.

INTERVIEW - MICHEL GORDEY
Michel Gordey 3:08
In general, I would say that there was both bewilderment and ignorance. bewilderment, because the French got an image of the Republican convention of what happened there at the Cow Palace, which was mostly sort of circus noise. And a lot of the usual things that happen at American conventions in which the French don't know very well about ignorance, because up to very recently, nobody in France really knew who Senator Goldwater was what his program was his position on national international affairs. And then that came reaction which came from more informed sources, which was a reaction I would say of worry.
Andrew Stern 4:03
As a working reporter here in France, do you have any indication as to what either General de Gaulle or high administration officials might personally feel about the nomination?
Michel Gordey 4:14
I don't know about General de Gaulle and I don't think that anybody knows about what goes on in General de Gaulle's mind including his ministers, but I do know that some high officials who are sort of around General de Gaulle, weren't at all worried about Senator Goldwater's nomination that they saw in this nomination. The sort of confirmation of what General d Gaulle has been saying in the last years. In other words, that nobody can know what will happen to American politics in the future. There are false images in France, I would say there is a sort of primitive image of two men from the wild west two men will have cowboy hats. One shoots from the hip from Arizona and the other shoots from the hip from Texas. And since this is based on something very real and tragic after all, President Kennedy was shot in Texas. And people are going to see your on Western movies here and they have an image of violence and hatred and brutality in America.

Ext. corner building of the French liberal weekly, L'Express.

WS Andrew Stern seated across a table with Jean-Jacques Servan-Schreiber, Editor of L'Express.

Cutaway to French political columnist for Le Figaro, Raymond Aron, leaning casually on exterior doorway to his home.

INTERVIEW

Andrew Stern:
Senator Goldwater has stated that he would like to strengthen the Atlantic Alliance, do you think that he has any possibilities of achieving this?

Raymond Aron 8:35
One point is sure that many people in Europe who speak about American isolationism are wrong if you read the speeches of Goldwater, if you read specialist books of his advisors, because the people around him are in favor of restoring the stakes in the cohesion of the Atlantic Alliance, even to the point of giving to the European countries, some atomic weapons. But the question remains as a doubt to means if the personality of Goldwater would be such as to make possible what he wants to do. Because if you take him at his words, it would be made more favorable to the asking of the Europeans on many points. Then Kennedy and Johnson swear. So you have a contradiction with between what I would call the Program and the man. Nobody wants that the national election could be commented upon in decided by foreigners in I know that when I'm writing something against Senator Goldwater, I'm fighting for him. But it's extremely difficult to ask a French journalist to speak in favor of Goldwater in the hope of bringing enemies to him. That would be slightly too complicated, not understood by the French readers. It would be better if we could remains Silent. But as you know, there is one thing which no democracy can do. That is to keep silent that we cannot do. And to say that we like Goldwater for the time being, is to ask too much from us. But still, it would be better if we could abstain from any comment and intend to do that as much as I can.

Andrew Stern 10:21
In terms of taking a harder line towards the in Eastern Europe and with the Russians face to face. Do you think that an American president can change the United States foreign policy quickly and radically?

Raymond Aron 10:39
You know, before the nomination of Goldwater, my answer would have been negative, because the United States belief to know the United States of Truman or Dewey or Eisenhower or Stevenson, Kennedy Johnson was a predictable United States. And I was sure that they could be nuances in the foreign policy of the United States, according to the man in the White House, but no fundamental difference. But if you put to me the same question about Goldwater, how could I answer? Because my guess is as a would not be a fundamental change, in spite of the privatos in in spite of the tough words. But I don't know if I'm answering this way, because I want to hope that it will be the same United States, but I cannot be sure anymore. And if you ask me, Why is this reaction of Europe, I would say the main reason is the unpredictability of Goldwater as president, nobody can be quite sure what he would do. And after all, when it is a big count, when it is the leader of the world of the free world, the unpredictability is rather unbearable for the allies,

Andrew Stern 12:00
Mr. Aron where and how did Europeans form their opinions about Senator Goldwater?

Raymond Aron 12:07
Until recent dates, the Europeans knew very little about him. But of course, they are readings the great press of the eastern coast, namely the New York Times and the New York Herald. So the view or the image they have of gold, water is not very favorable. But now all sorts of stories are coming in, maybe the image will change.

Stern at conference table with Conrad Ahlers, Managing Editor of Der Spiegel.

Cutaway to a man on the street selling newspapers, holding the daily newspaper, Bild, up in the air for pedestrians to see.

INTERVIEW WITH PETER BOENISCH, CHIEF EDITOR OF BILD-ZEITUNG DAILY NEWSPAPER

Peter Boenisch 16:39
I do not think that Goldwater is a fascist, because one is an extremist in defending freedom. It's just the opposite of one of if one is an extremist, in destroying freedom. And I think a fascist is a man who tries to destroy freedom and not to defend freedom.

Andrew Stern 17:04
Well, there has been some talk on the European press of making comparisons between Goldwater ism and McCarthyism. Do you think that these are justified at all?

Peter Boenisch 17:18
Well, I think McCarthy rarely tried to prosecute the communists. And Goldwater, to me seems more to be ready to fight the communists,

Andrew Stern 17:38
as Senator Goldwater were to be elected president of the United States. What effect do you think that this would have on US foreign policy, Visa V. Germany,

Peter Boenisch 17:48
Well as a German who lives in a divided country, and is probably more confronted to communism as the people in your country are. I would not be sorry, if American policy gets stronger toward communism. And this is not because we are cold war enthusiasts. But because we believe that toughness and readiness is a better weapon to keep peace in relation to the communist, then it is weakness and appeasement.

Andrew Stern 18:35
In the eyes of the German in what ways could American policy be tougher?

Peter Boenisch 18:40
For instance, I think Golwater was right at one point that that was one of the greatest mistakes of American policy, that in the fall power city, Berlin, they admitted to the communists to build up the wall without doing anything against it.

Andrew Stern 19:02
Do you think that there was something lacking in American foreign policy and the fact that perhaps they weren't aware enough of the continuing threat of communism?

Peter Boenisch 19:13
What I think it had changed all the time, some years, they were very much aware, especially if they were under Russian pressure, because this is one of the nice things and democracy that if you put them under pressure, then they get up and they don't want to be terrorized, neither by a minority nor by foreign enemy, nor by a foreign partner. And I think this is a very good reaction. But on the other side, it is very dangerous that if the Russians are starting to kiss babies, and to smile friendly and to have such It was cozy looking man like Mr. Khrushchev is sometimes then the Western word likes to forget how dangerous these people can be in the next second, and in the next minute, if they have the opportunity to do so.

INTERVIEW - MARION DONHOFF
Marion Donhoff 20:29
I didn't worry about them a bit so far, because I felt that some odd people and there's no country which has not some odd people, but I think that by the import of nationalism, which we automatically get from France today, if we add to this, certain Goldwater-ism, this might accumulate to a danger because some groups and individuals who hold opinions like the girl got Goldwater has and they now suddenly find together you find, went first and then go and PR an individual here and the journalist or paper there, and now they since it has become an issue, they tend to stick together and form sort of little island, which one day might become a bit bigger and bigger.
Andrew Stern 21:28
What about the argument that some liberal papers in the United States are making, that perhaps the foreign press shouldn't say that much about Senator Goldwater? Because in effect, it might be helping his cause?
Marion Donhoff 21:40
That's an argument which in this country we had all along, was, I don't want to compare Hitler's days was Goldwater is but that the basically, we had the same argument here always. Should you being more of a liberal human being? Should you go in the very beginning into the party, and try to modify it from within? Or should you remain outside and put your finger on the difficult fines and say, we're aware of this and be careful and so on, I haven't had seen. So those days, what happened, I would always say it's better to say from the very beginning, this or that is dangerous.

INTERVIEW - MALCOLM MAUGGERIDE.
Malcolm Mauggeridge 22:45
think, first of all, nobody in England understands American politics at all. I mean, they all think that people like Roosevelt and Kennedy were progressive, good man. And someone like Goldwater is a reactionary bad man. I mean, they make it sort of Western of American politics, which, of course, we all know is nonsensical, where my feelings are very mixed. I always like anybody who gets anything against the pundits. I mean, the fact that Goldwater had all the networks, all the papers, and all these colonists against him, and still got in, is to me sympathetic, but of course, it'd be idle for me to pretend that I like his views insofar as I read them. Although there again, I think there have been a bit exaggerated I read that paperback of his about consider, it seemed to me, rather banal, but nothing very terrifying about it. I didn't know if he were to become president. I doubt if it would be the sort of disaster there's a lot of English liberals think it would, to me this the palette I'd make seriously would be De Gaulle. When De Gaulle got in, in France. All these people who are saying, Goldwater is like Hitler only worse, was saying that. Well, De Gaulle there. This is Franco there's going to be a French civil war, we must immediately raise an international brigade. Within a matter of months de Gaulle had got rid of Algeria, which he was the only Frenchman who could have done it now. I would think if Goldwater became president, it's very likely that he'd make what's called a realistic which means a dirty deal with Khrushchev, which is really what the Russians would like. They'd like to have an American who'd make a deal with them and say, To hell with all these insignificant European countries and so on with two big nucleophiles let's sort things that make us much more likely to do that.

INTERVIEW: ELDON GRIFFITHS
Eldon Griffiths 24:46
candid about it. A lot of the negative reaction to Goldwater in the press, particularly in the London Times and in some of the the learned weeklys like the spectator The New Statesman is share anti Americanism. And they have been provided by Goldwater with a peg on which to hang the anti American feeling. And I think the other bad feature of the press reaction is sheer ignorance.
Andrew Stern 25:17
Why are these lines of communication so difficult?
Eldon Griffiths 25:21
I think most journalists who are observers, and observe a lot of things we had war or peace or politics, tend to understand that there's a complexity to event to pluralism of causes. And I think their, their sense of their intellectual sense, is a fronted by oversimplification. I think that is a very important aspect of the hostility to Goldwater. And I'm certain that the Goldwater reaction is a sort of, it's a reactionary movement to the loss of unchallenged American power, you're beginning to slide a little bit of the the top, you see, and the great number of Americans don't understand this. And they say, Well, why are we not able to achieve victory in Vietnam? And why when we've given all this money to Europe, don't they do as we asked them, and they're frustrated and annoyed by it. And I think Goldwater is cashing in a great deal on that. And not cynically, I'm sure he believes in himself he just wrong.

INTERVIEW - ROBERT TELFORD MCKENZIE.
Robert McKenzie 26:33
in the contest between Goldwater and Johnson, there's bound to be some very rough passages, where there may be a competition in severity toward the communist world, toward Cuba, and so on. And the British politicians may find themselves drawn into retaliation to certain things that may be said in the course of the American campaign. I've got in mind, for example, the fact that all parties in this country favor trade, peaceful trade with Cuba. There's no argument here. Now, if Johnson and Goldwater and one thinks particularly of Johnson, perhaps being provoked by Goldwater, beginning talking tough about nations that trade with Cuba, then you may find British politicians drawn against their will into some kind of slanging match with the American contestants. Now they're trying to avoid this. But there's a genuine fear that could happen. I think you've got to face this fact that is that, who wins the American presidency is a more important figure really, for the fate of this country than who wins the British election. We've got, in a sense Scandinavian politics here, a very Progressive Conservative Party, a very moderate Labour Party, and a small liberal party. And it'd be very hard to argue the fate of Britain or the world is going to be in any serious sense determined by who wins the election. I would argue, of course, that would be highly unwise for British politicians. And I think they're all aware of this, to indulge in any very detailed criticism or condemnation of Goldwater or his policies. On the other hand, you cannot escape the fact that his nomination has caused profound concern and profound uneasiness here in Britain, on the part of the leaders of all the parties.

Moderator Andrew Stern talking into camera from balcony building overlooking a very foggy London summing up today's program.

Reel ends. At Issue - Goldwater The European Response