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WNET NY graphic
Title Card: The Eleventh Hour - #199, Giuliani
Funding for the show announced and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
The Eleventh Hour graphic and show opener.
A faux gold police badge overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic reads: Crime & Punishment
A clip from unknown movie or tv show where the cowboy in the white hat creeps into town in the dark and shoots the bad guys. Lipsyte narrates about "The Man in the White Hat" - referring to the color of the cowboy hat stereo-typically worn by the hero who rides into town to save the day (in old Western movies). Old time Western hero.
Host Robert Lipsyte welcomes viewers to the show and introduces himself. He introduces his guest, a young Rudolph Giuliani, Former U.S. Attorney and a candidate for New York Mayor in 1989, AKA "The Prosecuting Angel" - who could also be "The Man in the White Hat" coming to save New York.
Rudy Giuliani 3:19
I certainly think the second part is is true in New York is out of control. In so many different respects, crime is one of them, but the conditions of the streets, the homelessness problems, the lack of affordable housing, the school system deteriorating, I don't think it's unfair to say that things have gotten out of control. And we need to restore some sense of order and, and logic and common sense to the things that we do.
Robert Lipsyte 3:43
Are you comfortable with the image of yourself as the man with the star and the white hat?
Rudy Giuliani 3:48
No, not really. I don't I don't see myself that way. How do you see yourself effective, effective administrator with a lot of good ideas and ideals for the city and love for the city? I was in law enforcement for a long time, and I have some very strong views about it. So maybe in that sense, it's not unfair for people to see me that way. But I don't see myself that way.
Host Lipsyte narrates over a montage of photos and stories about legendary mayoral candidates who have "thrown their white hats into the ring" and winning.
B&W photo stills former Mayoral candidate, 1881 William Grace. B&W satirical photo/article "the bosses...", photo Seth Low from Columbia College early 1900's.
Historical footage circa early 1930's Fiorello LaGuardia, "Congratulations to Mayor La Guardia" lights scrolling across top of apartment building; LaGuardia cutting the ribbon to the City; dumping boxes off a barge into the water in celebration of throwing out the bad guys and all their toys; sweeping the streets with giant brooms.
B&W photo stills circa 1965 John V. Lindsay standing amidst crowd at rally for Mayor. People holding signs "John V. Lindsay for Mayor" "Got a Gripe about New York? Phone the John Lindsay grape-line; taking the oath of office, smiling in the midst of a giant crowd.
Back in the studio Host Lipsyte continues interview with Rudolph Guiliani
Rudy Giuliani 5:45
Sure, absolutely. LaGuardia was a mayor who was able to reach beyond party labels reach beyond narrow ideological boundaries and put together a fusion movement, which is what we have to do today we have, we have to appeal to the people that are excluded and bring them in, in order to break up the dominance of a single party that has become negligent and to some extent corrupt.
Robert Lipsyte 6:07
The difference is that Fiorello LaGuardia was seen as a warm, wet, compassionate man. And of course, your image as this is the prosecuting Angel. Someone who sees crime as sin is something quite different, isn't it?
Rudy Giuliani 6:22
I guess I'm sure everybody has different careers, and you come to your positions in life in a different way. And I don't I don't pretend to be LaGuardia, or Lindsay or anyone else. I myself. I have my own assets and liabilities. But I think I can bring an awful lot to the job. In particular, my background in law enforcement made the greatest problems New York has today our crime and drugs. I'm in a position where I know the most about those problems and can make the most progress
Robert Lipsyte 6:46
those your assets, what exactly would you do?
Rudy Giuliani 6:49
Well, I would attack it from the point of view of the drug problem. And from the day I became mayor, I would change the rules on the drug dealers. I've been fighting this thing for 20 years, and I have a really good sense of what affects them and what has to be done.
Robert Lipsyte 7:01
what has to be done.
Rudy Giuliani 7:02
Well, first of all, you've got to make certain that they go off to prison, you can't have them back out on the street, six, seven times out of 10. After they get arrested. The criminal justice system in New York operates as a processing center for criminals. We find them we tagged them, we give them a record, and then we put them back out on the streets. that's a that's a counterproductive way to be using it. And if you understand the system, you don't dramatically increase police officers and police arrests without also increasing the courts, the probation departments, the prisons, so that you're not creating more chaos. What happened last year is that we created more chaos. When I was in the justice,
Robert Lipsyte 7:38
you're speaking specifically of the tactical narcotics task force that arrested a lot of people
Rudy Giuliani 7:44
more than that, if you look at the history of the mayor over the last two or three years, we've had increases in the police department dramatic, then plans to decrease the police department that increases then decreases again, and that increases. And now he's talking about another dramatic decrease at a time of great fear of crime. That's That's what I mean by a city out of control that isn't being managed. There are no long term plans. And there's no real understanding
Robert Lipsyte 8:06
Well, specifically in terms of increases and decreases please, you would put more police, you would hire more police you would put more police on the street
Rudy Giuliani 8:15
There are a couple of things that you have to do you have to understand the system. So if you're going to increase police officers, particularly those who are going to go out and make arrests as the TNT program was designed to do you have to at the same time calculate how many arrests will they make, and you have to increase the whole system. I did that in the Justice Department in 19. In 1983, rather than just increasing the number of FBI agents and DEA agents, we increase the whole system commensurate with the number of new agents we were putting out there to arrest people so that we didn't create chaos. So that's one of the things that you'd have to do. If your prisons are overcrowded, then maybe you have to think about and I think there's other good reasons for this. Using police officers for patrol more often. Police officers being used for patrol prevent crime. So now you're not you're not creating more candidates for prison. When Ben Ward did that on the Lower East Side in 1984. He put 250 additional police officers down there the rates of crimes dropped dramatically 20, 30 40% less muggings, burglaries, robberies
Robert Lipsyte 9:13
in that neighborhood that neighborhood and and push those criminals into other neighborhoods that were rate went up.
Rudy Giuliani 9:19
What What happened was you got an incremental decrease, even in those other neighborhoods. Yes, some moved. Others were discouraged. So you actually saw a drop in even in the surrounding neighborhoods, although some of that phenomenon did occur.
Robert Lipsyte 9:31
One One of the statistics that surprised us this week on our Crime and Punishment week was that at any given time, there are only 1500 police officers on the streets on patrol.
Rudy Giuliani 9:42
It's a very it's a small number and it comes from an analysis that police officers are more efficient if you have them in Sector cars and police officers can be more efficiently used if they're not out on patrol, which may be a good paper argument, but it misunderstands the process of how a neighborhood works. If I have a I have a mother who's almost 80. And I know a lot of people that are elderly, if they see police officers that they can walk to, they're going to go out and go back on the streets. If they can look to their grocery store three blocks away and see two police officers between them and the grocery store. They're gonna feel comfortable walking into that grocery store,
Robert Lipsyte 10:19
do you worry about your mother in the city?
Rudy Giuliani 10:21
Sure. And my wife, it's something you have to think about in New York City. She was the victim of a attempted mugging a couple of weeks ago. And my wife was, and our reaction to it was, thank God. That's all that happened. And then afterwards, you reflect on that and say, you have in essence, you're in a situation where you have to be thankful that you were a victim of a crime, but it was a very minor crime. And that's, that's something that you have to turn around. You have to change.
Robert Lipsyte 10:46
Does that make you angry, this crime make you angry?
Rudy Giuliani 10:48
The first reaction to it was anger. When my wife, we were at a Seder, and I was waiting for her and she came in and she had, someone had ripped her pocketbook. She had refused to give him the pocketbook and started screaming, and then he ran away. And she and she was five months pregnant. So your first reaction is, is a very extreme anger. And then, you know, after that, we reported it to the police and you hope that they find the person so it doesn't happen to someone else.
Robert Lipsyte 11:14
Well as Rudolph Giuliani, I suppose you got good response from the police.
Rudy Giuliani 11:18
You know, it's very, very interesting. I did not identify myself as Rudolph Giuliani originally, not on purpose, but I was reporting she she uses her own name, Donna Hanover, because she's on television. So I reported it for her. And we and it took about 15 or 20 minutes. And then she got on the phone to describe what happened. And it was in the course of that, that she used my name. And then the lady still didn't realize and then she asked well, is that the same Rudolph Giuliani who was a US Attorney, then she put the sergeant on the phone and other people. But I must say they were very, very solicitous. Even during the stage, they didn't know who I was.
Robert Lipsyte 11:52
Well, that's good to hear. Because, of course, what we've been seeing in the city is they're not necessarily solicitous or even very responsive. One of the shocking things in the Wilding incident, of course, was the jogger who ran into the station as in Central Park, to report the youths having beaten him and nobody even bothered to take his name.
Rudy Giuliani 12:09
It's a sporadic kind of thing there are there are incidents of very good response, and then there are incidents of not very good response. And I think it depends to a large extent on the personnel involved.
Robert Lipsyte 12:18
Well, how are you going to affect that?
Rudy Giuliani 12:20
Well, you have to you have to affect that by creating an attitude of service delivery. In all of the agencies of government, that's something you have to work on through by creating morale, and associating good performance with with carrying out good service to the public, elevating people who have done that and making a roll model
Robert Lipsyte 12:37
The service delivery sounds a little like McDonald's. I mean, we're talking about people who really frightened in the city and want the police to really care,
Rudy Giuliani 12:47
You have to give the police the sense and all the all the people who work for the city, that their public servants and that they have to respond graciously and quickly to what the public wants and make that part of the morale of the job.
Robert Lipsyte 12:58
What do you put more police on the street, you would make them more of a presence to prevent crime, you would have more jails, you would have the criminal justice system working more, I mean, this sounds terrific
Rudy Giuliani 13:09
And you have to focus on the drug problem and turn it around. Because at the core of a heart of a highway, you start with that and also you have to isolate you have to isolate the drug problem that is out of control right now.
Robert Lipsyte 13:21
And where where do you attack it? Do the rest Noriega? Or do you arrest the kid from New Jersey who comes into Inwood to buy some drugs? Where do you start
Rudy Giuliani 13:30
The young fellow in New Jersey, that's buying drugs is more of our problem than Noriega really want. It's more, it's more of our problem. First of all, because it's within our own country, it's the thing we have the most control over, we do not. We have limited ability to affect foreign countries by the very nature of world politics. And we should do a lot more about that. And I think we should be a lot tougher, and anything we want to do to Noriega, I will applaud and help with. However, from the point of view of First things first and what we can affect, it's that demand for drugs in the United States that's killing us. And it is creating the world problem. Americans spend $150 billion a year on dangerous drugs. And that is the core of our crime problem in New York, maybe 50, 60 70% of the crime problem is driven by the drug problem, you have to reduce the demand for drugs. If If we eliminated Noriega if we turned around Colombia, but we still still spent $150 billion a year on drugs. They'd be a new Noriega and a new Colombia within a few hours to grab a piece of that American market. So you have got to affect the demand for drugs. That means education programs that are five times more comprehensive than we have today, in schools, on television, on radio, using our best techniques to convince youngsters not to use drugs. The optimistic part of that is when where we do those programs they work. They drop rates of usage of marijuana and alcohol for youngsters down by 30 40% with strong comprehensive programs that begin at five and six years old. In New York, we don't begin to move five and six, we wait until it's too late. We have to treat addicts. In New York, we do not treat all of the addicts that ask for treatment, because we don't put enough money into it, we have to reallocate our resources and put money into it. And we'll save money, because we're dealing with those addicts in prison. Now at two and three times the cost, I believe, we have to also focus some attention on the discretionary purchaser of cocaine, the person who is not an addict, but is buying cocaine in New York, because they want to have fun, because it's part of their lifestyle, because they think they think there's nothing wrong with it, it happens to be a misdemeanor. And it should be enforced. And we should give people warning, because there has been a different attitude about it. What I would do as mayor is tell people, that at a certain time, the rules were going to change, and possibly right at the very beginning, the rules were going to change. And if you buy cocaine in New York City, you have to take the risk that you may get arrested, and there will be penalties that follow from that. And I would devote a small proportion of the law enforcement resources to focus on that the large proportion has to focus on the drug dealers. And that's where we have to have the prisons, and we have to have the jails to make certain we can follow through on our rest of them. And so in terms of addicts, they should be treated.
Robert Lipsyte 16:14
And there seems to be a real difference in terms of people taking the marketplace of drugs between the kids were buying crack uptown, and the discretionary purchases of cocaine, some of the people that you've played with on Wall Street,
Rudy Giuliani 16:29
there are some differences. And there's some similarities. A couple of years ago, when the crack problem began in Washington Heights, we have the federal government engaged in in a joint program with a New York City Police Department, and we began arresting not only the people who was selling crack, but we would do surveillance, and we would wait for 5,6,7 or eight cars to come in, buy crack, and then we would arrest both the purchaser and the seller. Particularly since they were driving automobiles, they were exceedingly dangerous. Some of these people would buy crack, use it and then drive back to New Jersey or Connecticut or whatever you would find. If you studied those statistics, that a significant number of those people buying crack were not addicts. They're going to become addicts. But they're not addicts right now. And a significant number were addicts. So it's not it's a mixed it's a mixed picture. The non addict purchaser, however, is adding billions and billions of dollars to this to this problem. A couple of this was over a month ago now. But a DEA agent Hatcher was assassinated in Staten Island. And within a day or two, his wife said that she blamed his assassination on the people who buy drugs in America. And I thought that was that was correct. Many of the people don't realize it. But they have to be made to realize
Robert Lipsyte 17:41
You know that drugs are only part of the problem of crime in the city. Also, drugs did not seem to be part of the so called Wilding incident in Central Park, nor part of the insider trading scandals.
Rudy Giuliani 17:55
Drugs are only a part of the problem. They're, they're a big part of it, because they drive maybe 50 to 70% of the violent crimes that create fear. The problem of white collar crime, political corruption is equally as important. And it's a little hard for people to understand this because it's more abstract. But in a society in which the richest and most powerful people are seen to be violating the law with impunity, it is very hard to get the least powerful people to to obey the law in their in their own sphere. And when people sense it and feel it, and nothing is being done about it. It really unhinges their respect for for the law. And in the long run. If we're going to turn this around, we have to create respect for law and an application of that law to everyone on it on at least a roughly equal basis.
Robert Lipsyte 18:41
There is, of course, a sense that there is a lack of respect for law. What you talked about the city is at a control. Do you have any thoughts about how it happened?
Wide shot of the studio, Host Lipsyte sitting across from Rudolph Giuliani, against the backdrop of the Eleventh Hour graphic still with a large gold police badge superimposed over it.
Rudy Giuliani 18:50
It's It's been a long process really, over the last 12,13 years. We're talking about violent crime, the big increases occurred in the late 70s, based on the FBI reports. If you look, look at it on a chart, you see that chart kind of going out of control. In the late 70s, early 80s, it kind of dipped again. And now we're out of we're out of control. Again,
Robert Lipsyte 19:12
Do you think that there are social conditions, do you think some some hinge of morality loosen that the people have changed,
Rudy Giuliani 19:20
that we we moved away from a society that put heavy emphasis on on civic virtue and standards? And now I'm not talking about in any way personal morality or personal choices that people make to think there's a connection? Sometimes Yes, and sometimes No, but the proper role of government is in the area of civic virtue. And a lot of those other things are things that families have to decide and individuals have to decide. But the emphasis on input, for example, within the educational system, training young people to be citizens, used to be what I remembered, when I was when I was young. We were being trained to be citizens of our country of our city of our state. For a long time the education drifted. And the theory of education was to make you everything you could be, reach inside yourself have every experience that you want. It wasn't getting connected to how do you fit into society what your contribution has to be? I'd like to see those that emphasis restored at the earliest stages of public education where you teach civic virtue, and you teach the responsibilities that you have, they go along with the liberties that you have, and that you don't and one, one is absolutely connected to the other.
Robert Lipsyte 20:32
In terms of that connection, do you think that there is any connection between the so called Wilding in Central Park, and the corruption in City Hall and the insider trading on Wall Street? is there is there a thread
Rudy Giuliani 20:49
there's an abstract connection between them, it's not No, there's no direct connection. And there's a connection between the wilding that goes on now and the peer pressure that exists, even if even if the youngsters who are involved in a particular incident running around doing harm to people, even if they are not themselves involved with drugs, many of the appears are, and that's the, that's the subculture that we're dealing with. They're also involved in a situation where day in and day out, they hear about and learn about individuals in political political positions of power, or very, very, very powerful economically, who are committing all sorts of crimes taking advantage of other people. So they get a sense that, you know, if they can do it, and get away with it, I can do it also. You can't. In a society like ours in a democracy, where we learn, we learn from the law, and for and from and from each other. You can't separate the two things. It is very abstract, it's not something that you could ever, absolutely show a direct connection between one and the other. But you know, it has to have an effect on youngsters, because you hear it when you talk to them, even even the ones that are that are solid citizens will talk to you about how much rich people get away with or how much powerful politicians get away with. And I always felt a sense of contribution by my office, when we could hold people who were powerful, as accountable with people who were who were poor.
Robert Lipsyte 22:10
You talked earlier about your strengths and liabilities or assets. I guess I guess everybody's strength is that their weakness too. And of course, your image as as the man who, you know, kicks ass and take names, is a powerful one, you won and lost in the courtroom. And yet, as a mayor, even as a law and order mayor, as a sheriff mayor, you're going to have to be closer to LaGuardia, you're going to have to make that transition towards compassion and compromise. Do you think you're gonna have to gear yourself differently than have to change?
Rudy Giuliani 22:46
Sure, you always have to change when you move into new challenges and new hire positions. The the role and job of being the United States Attorney is very different than being a mayor. And I've done different things in my career and you have to adapt yourself to, to the things you can do this, when I left the United States,
Robert Lipsyte 23:05
we're gonna have to find a gentler Kinder Giuliani.
Rudy Giuliani 23:08
I've always been a kind, compassionate person as the United States Attorney
Robert Lipsyte 23:13
Well, A lot of People don't think so. I mean, Well, certainly in terms of some of the things you did, leading those kidder Peabody guys and manacles out of their office. There was never an indictment there.
Rudy Giuliani 23:24
I never did that.
Robert Lipsyte 23:25
Rudy Giuliani 23:26
I never in my entire life, let anybody out of there.
Robert Lipsyte 23:28
You didn't personally,
Rudy Giuliani 23:29
I authorize I authorize the arrest. One person refused to come along. And federal agents when you say I will not come along, put handcuffs on you.
Robert Lipsyte 23:37
I mean, this all added to your tough guy imag Bess Meyerson case of Sukhreet Gable, bugging her mother. I mean, this was this was the law and order.
Rudy Giuliani 23:49
That was also something that that I did not authorize, and I found out the fact
Robert Lipsyte 23:53
you wouldn't have allowed that if you'd known.
Rudy Giuliani 23:55
That was it was it was specifically not supposed to happen. Now, I, if you're a prosecutor, and you put people in prison, you make tough decisions about their lives, and I'm fully capable of doing that. And I take the notion of respecting and upholding the law very, very seriously. So that's something that as mayor, I maybe have a different attitude about. I would not tolerate corruption, and I wouldn't tolerate the wrong signals being sent out about it. But I may think there's an awful lot that people can find out about me, that will be maybe a pleasant surprise for them. I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a baseball fan. I love opera and, and music. I have a lot of friends, many of them old friends for many, many years.
Robert Lipsyte 24:36
I'm sure you're a good guy. But you're also the guy who said the way to clear out corruption is to scare the daylights out of people. And maybe that's maybe that's your attractiveness.
Rudy Giuliani 24:46
I still agree with that. I want people who are contemplating taking bribes or paying bribes in this city to be frightened. I wanted to I wanted to enter their minds, that they can be caught, and that they can be prosecuted. And if we don't do that, we're just going to wallow in this corruption that we've had for years and years you want I don't see that frayed of you, I don't absolutely they should be afraid of the application of the law, if they're going to commit serious crimes, whether they're bribery crimes or violent crimes, I very much want criminals in this city, to be frightened of me, as a representative of the legal system, that's part of what's wrong. Here. We have, we have people committing rapes, committing muggings, committing murders, and taking bribes and giving bribes. And they don't, they're not afraid. They're not afraid of the system, doing something difficult to them. That's the whole purpose of deterrence and the whole purpose of our legal system to deter people from committing crimes. That's the short term way to do it. The long term way to do it is to educate a lot more effectively than we've been doing. And I want to do both. But I think the side of me that people haven't gotten to see, but will get to see is that I care very much about youngsters, that the problems of poverty and the problems of homelessness affect me just as much as the problems of crime, and I have the same dedication to doing something about feel that connected, sometimes, yes, sometimes No, and it doesn't even matter if they're connected. If people are living on the streets, you've got to do something about that. And you have to have a passion, and a real push to do it. And I can apply the passions that I had for upholding the law as effectively as possible to all of these other problems, because they mean something to me.
Robert Lipsyte 26:17
I get the sense that you're saying that you can be as tough being a nice guy, as you are being an art guy
Rudy Giuliani 26:22
I can be as effective in dealing with the problems of the educational system and homelessness and housing. A lot of the housing problems that we have in the city stem from not making enough opportunities available, some of them stem from the political alliances and the campaign contribution problems that people have I don't I come to it, with a fresh approach, wanting to very much solve the problem.
Robert Lipsyte 26:44
We don't have very much time this is Guliani, why do you want to be mayor of the city.
Rudy Giuliani 26:48
This is a this is my city, and it's in trouble. And it's the city I was born in. It's the city that my parents were born in. And it goes back to my grandparents coming here from Italy, and I have a son and another child on the way who are going to grow up in this city. And I want to improve it, I think and I also believe that I'm in a particularly opportune position to do that circumstances have put me in a position where I've seen the worst of this city over the last five or six years. I know I can improve it, and you can't walk away from a challenge like that. It's something that makes your life worthwhile.
Robert Lipsyte 27:18
Mr. Giuliani, thank you very much for being with us. Thank you.
Interview concludes, Lipsyte thanks Giuliani and announces next week's lineup. He announces the show and introduces himself. Show ends.
Show credits over The Eleventh Hour still graphic and large Crime and Punishment police badge.
Funding for the program by announcer and overlay the Eleventh Hour graphic.
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