Slate. The Eleventh Hour Show #173 Fashion
Funding and grants announced, listed over The Eleventh Hour graphic in bkgd.
Show opener, animated graphics
Show host, Robert Lipsyte, wearing a colorfully attention getting tie, welcomes viewers and announces today's show topic, Fashion
Montage of clips from a fashion party, people dressed in various identities, worker, jock, cowboy, military, male mannequins dressed in var styles.
Host Lipsyte standing with Richard Martin, curator from the Fashion Institute of Technology, at the Jocks and Nerds exhibit.
pan up and down on Lipsyte's (from neck down) clothing focusing on knit tie, jacket and shoes.
a Line up of male mannequins dressed in various fashion style identities
pan up and down on a mannequin dressed as a jock or sports player
zoom in on lower legs of mannequin's feet wearing white sneakers and white "bobby" socks
Lipsyte with Richard Martin. Martin pointing out male mannequin's style of conservative clothing.
Pan down mannequin wearing brown penny loafers, white socks and chino pants
Pan up and down on mannequin wearing a hunter's style of clothing also worn by foreign correspondent, safari jacket and hat, sunglasses, brown leather bag slung over shoulder.
Lipsyte and Martin discussing different style of men's wear.
Close up and zoom in on Lipsyte's face looking bewildered
Thought bubble, var changing images of Lipsyte in different styles and forms of dress
Lipsyte and Martin standing next to runway of male mannequins. They discuss the various styles of fashion.
Pan down on male mannequin wearing aviator style clothing, fashionable bomber jacket, duffle bag.
Lipsyte and Martin discuss the mannequins wearing the "man about town" and "dandy" fashions.
Image of Lipsyte in a cartoon thought bubble wearing "dandy" style ruffled shirt, tux jacket. Top hat and cane floating in a cloud.
Back to Lipsyte and Martin now observing the "businessman" mannequin.
Close up mannequin hand holding brown leather hard type briefcase
Close up on black leather motorcycle jacket
close up white mannequin face wearing aviator style sunglasses
z'in Lipsyte face thinking thinking
Lipsyte cartoon thought bubble. Lipsyte in bubble in changing styles of fashion - businessman, the "rebel" in black motorcycle jacket sunglasses
Pan up on male mannequin in 1950's "rebel" fashion - square toe boots, black jeans, black leather motorcycle jacket, aviator sunglasses, pompadour hairstyle.
Lipsyte and Martin standing at the "nerd" mannequin discuss the nerd style of emerging fashion.
They discuss the new "rebel" of the '80's and 90's, the nerd - the computer guy, the computer hacker - the guy who everyone will ultimately be working for.
Shots of male mannequin in typical "nerd" style fashion, dark square black glasses, short haircut, hi-waisted pants, shirt buttoned at collar.
Lipsyte in cartoon bubble dressed as the "nerd"
Lipsyte and Martin standing amidst mannequins dressed in various cowboy style of dress.
Close up shot lower legs in shaggy cowboy chaps, brown cowboy boots.
Close up dark skinned mannequin wearing cowboy hat, white kerchief and red shirt. Zoom in on white kerchief with focus on the knot.
shots of male mannequins wearing different styles of cowboy hats
close up on a fabulous pair of white furry cowboy chaps.
close up on black fringed leather jacket over black cowboy shirt with pearl buttons
Cartoon thought bubble with Lipsyte dressed in various styles of cowboy clothes, and other fashion images - the Nerd, buisinessman, the hunter, etc.
Host Robert Lipsyte back in the studio sitting next to a male mannequin who is sitting with leg crossed and looking right at Lipsyte, fashionably dressed in business attire.
Host Lipsyte introduces men and women's fashion designer, Ronaldus Shamask and fashion historian, Ann Hollander.
Wide shot Lipsyte, fashionably dressed male mannequins, and guests Shamask and Hollander sitting in The Eleventh Hour studio.
Something seems to have happened in the last 10 years to men's fashion, it seems they're more accessible a growth industry and men seem more aware of what they're wearing, why what's happened.
I think the fault lies probably with other mediums. I think there are many ways of participating in fashion and you can participate by reading about it, looking at clothes, and suddenly there's a lot of fashion made available to men and Participating by reading about it or looking still at Windows is a fairly safe way of participating.
But you don't think they're actually participating?
Well I think now people are. And also, I think it was, on the past, really a taboo for men to read poetry, buy flowers, or care about fashion. And that idea has changed. I think it's perfectly alright now to do all three, all three together, maybe?
And why do you think it's so right? Do you think it's all right now?
Anne Hollander (Fashion Historian):
Oh, it was always All right. And it only became all wrong at a certain time, more or less in the last century, so that we're still inheritors of that idea that men are not supposed to be interested in. variety in clothing and expressive, sensual aspects of what they look like and have on fashion is become, in this last part of this century, something that everyone must take account of men and women, and it is so visible. And so much has been printed and said about how important it is that everyone is quite aware that there's no way to ignore it.
But men are actually putting on clothes that they haven't put on before. And and in this climate of new sensuality and new awareness, where do you get ideas from? I mean, what, what? in the society, in movies? What, how do you decide that you're going to make a suit like this, and not a tie like that?
Well, I think the real designers, people in the street, because they in a subconscious way, or a conscious way, put close together for functions. And the functions to point dictate what people were, by functions. You mean, when it's going to the office, whether it's going to a restaurant, and people. People change the rules, you know, and they change the protocols. And what we do as designers, if we're any good at all, we try to reflect what people really want to hear what I like to wear, and make it available to them.
When you see something on somebody who might be what would be considered a leader or a style setter. And that leads you to a new drape, a new kind of texture,
maybe not as deliberate as that I think it's more to do with a sense of what's going on in the world. And just in general, what people like to dress or what they want to wear.
Can we make judgments about people men? By what they're wearing? Are they giving messages?
I think you can tell a lot about what they have in mind. But you're always in danger of misinterpreting.
Well what do I have in mind? Just a sheer blue suit? A nice tie? Pink shirt?
Safety. I do think yes. And I do think that men in general have for these last 150 years, certainly. And perhaps for longer than that. I've been very fond of safety and have loved joining groups that they feel comfortable being associated with in their garments.
So you know, when when you change your clothes, are you actually changing? I mean, does that really make a difference?
Oh I think it makes it a very...
I mean, if I if I moved out of this to Armani, or even better to Shamask, would I be making a statement about myself? And would I really be somebody different?
I think your main statement would be made to yourself, I think that the the messages of dress strike inward, the most accurate ones are the ones we tell ourselves, what the public sees is very often not exactly what you had in mind. And we'll see perhaps more than you mean, or other things that you aren't aware of. And we'll be interpreting through their own ideas. So that the messages that are given out are risky messages unless they are very, very safe ones like your blue suit, which everyone has a certain convention and agreement about. So if you go into Armani, you're telling yourself something and you have a feeling about yourself in Armani and that will give of course a slightly indirect message it will show you to have made this choice what the choice itself signifies is a bit of a mystery.
What I'm getting the sense is that once you have made the choice to change your style, in a sense, you are making the choice to change, you are going to be someone different.
Absolutely. For instance, a lot of my clients who cannot wear my designs to the office may wear it on the weekend. Just because they want to change the mood and they Really comfortable with it. In other professions, you certainly can wear a suit without a tie. It's quite acceptable. As it is now in restaurants, you don't have to rip ties to restaurants, which is only not too long ago was absolutely necessary. But I don't know if you really change you're feeling I think if you feel good in whatever you wear, you will probably show that if you want to feel or show power, if you want to show sexiness, if you want to show sensitivity, you can do that through by wearing certain clothes. And whether you perceive that is something else that depends on where you hang out and what you do. And who else is wearing what.
Robert Lipsyte 15:44
There are other considerations. I mean, sex we talked about and class and money. This kind of very nice Harris tweet, how much would it cost? If I went to buy it?
Ronaldus Shamask 15:57
I would say approximately $800.
Robert Lipsyte 15:59
$800 now an $800 suit spending $800 for suit is some sort of a statement too, isn't it?
Ronaldus Shamask 16:07
It certainly is
Anne Hollander 16:09
mostly to yourself, I would say.
Robert Lipsyte 16:10
mostly to yourself, you don't think its an expression to the world saying I can afford an $800 suit. And you can't
Ronaldus Shamask 16:18
yes, but I do think that the people that that are interested in fashion and care about fashion, because that makes them feel good in certain ways. don't really buy it format, how much it cost, I think you go for two different labels for that. As odd as it sounds, you know, when you buy Brooks Brothers, it's also a statement. You know, when you wear a T shirt, you know, in a way it's referred snobbery, perhaps but it's also a statement has nothing to do with money. We often find that people instead of wearing a tie, would now wear a T shirt, which is almost replaced the tie in certain circles. It's as much as a uniform or a costume.
Robert Lipsyte 17:02
Well, that, of course, is something I find amazing. Because you know, in my time growing up, you know, when I went to Brooks and said wrap me up, so I don't have to think about the idea of letting your T shirt show under shirt was was unthinkable. And I was thinking I made a list of for what I would consider male fashion setters in this country, George Bush, Woody Allen, Johnny Carson, and Don Johnson. I don't even know what do you think? I mean, what are they telling us? By the clothes they wear? What is George Bush tell you?
Anne Hollander 17:37
He is trying, I think to look as if he cared very little about what he wears, and is therefore bound to wear things that are very safe indeed. So he need not care. You know that question of not caring is very subtle, because of course, if you really don't care, you pick things out of the garbage and drape them on you and you then you don't care. But if you you have to look as if you don't deeply consider the cut of your coat.
Robert Lipsyte 18:01
Well look what Ron is wearing. Yes, I mean, he's wearing those kind of crummy old chinos that I wore in college. What are you telling us by that?
Ronaldus Shamask 18:10
Well, actually, first of all, it's one of those items that are very, very useful and talking about money. You know, I just came back from monte-carlo where I won an award and wore the chinos with a white jacket and white tie and a beautiful white face? And it was a very formal evening and look perfectly okay. Of course. So, I don't have to,
Robert Lipsyte 18:33
but what was the statement you were making a chance kind of bizarre to me? Uh, you know, you were saying, you know, I'm only half here with you guys.
Ronaldus Shamask 18:42
And no, no, no, what happened is, is that if it looked out of place it would would have been a statement but it didn't. Being nonchalant as you saying is. Let me rephrase that. I think for somebody to look like they're successfully dressed, they have to look like they didn't try very, very hard. If somebody looks like they've been studying what they should wear what I have to wear, then all you can see is the the thought process involved and you don't really see the person
Robert Lipsyte 19:13
You could spend weeks trying to be thoughtless.
Ronaldus Shamask 19:15
That's true, too.
Anne Hollander 19:16
And then it mustn't show like the you know, the weeks of training and the effort must not appear.
Robert Lipsyte 19:22
This really smacks of fakery of manipulation.
Anne Hollander 19:26
No, no art, art art? Yes, not fakery. Any more than ballet dancing is fakery rather than walking naturally on your feet. I mean, it is a form of aesthetic achievement to create yourself
Robert Lipsyte 19:42
How can we take anybody seriously, certainly. How can we take the dandy Seriously? How can we take anybody who who costumes
Anne Hollander 19:51
the original dandy, Beau Brummell tried very hard for a completely in conspicuous propriety. As they said you He was exquisitely turned out, but he wished to be unnoticeable. And it took me hours. And there are many anecdotes about him. The laser dandies are the ones whose efforts were very visible and who costume to themselves in a way as if to keep people at a distance, and to be admired for how much effort went into it. So no one would question past that. anything about that?
Robert Lipsyte 20:20
Well, I feel like in that movie at the Fashion Institute, I was appalled to find out that those Cowboys, the Cowboys spent hours, you know, with their kerchiefs and their hats, I wanted to believe that, you know, slapped it on jumped on old paint. rode the range. But they didn't, did they?
Ronaldus Shamask 20:40
No, But that's exactly what I'm trying to say is, is that if it, if it looks like it's studied, and then it's not successful, if it looks like it just happened, you happen to look great, as you say, was women's clothes is that now we are getting into a period of what I call non fashion, the only true fashion is no fashion at all. Because if somebody looks like they bought a costume with a matching hat and a handbag, and I don't know anybody who would want to know this person, because what it means is talking about interesting or sincerity, that person isn't obviously not thinking about other things. And in today's life, we have to think about other things. We're supposed to be concerned about other things.
Robert Lipsyte 21:26
And yet to achieve that kind of nonchalance, that casual look really requires a sense of style. With those clothes that you're wearing here today, just lying over your chair, when you woke up this morning, what did you think I'm going to be on television, I'm going to make a statement. And this is the statement I'm going to make
Ronaldus Shamask 21:47
Well, to be honest with you this the only thing I had cleaned this morning. I just came back from a trip and it seemed good seemed reasonable. I didn't know.
Robert Lipsyte 22:03
Do you believe him? That he just threw these off?
Anne Hollander 22:05
Well I'll I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I usually don't believe it. When people say that because most people take pains and think carefully about how they are going to appear. It has been the case that women have been supposed to have more licensed to take pains and to look as if they had taken pains in the very fact that women have been expected to wear makeup and hair that takes a certain amount of effort, particularly things like the makeup has suggested that to look as if you had taken pains is part of your attractiveness. Not so for men all these years,
Robert Lipsyte 22:43
Well men, men want women to have worked hard to seduce them. But a man can just kind of throw on a suit and a tie.
Anne Hollander 22:51
He has to agree about the fact that a suit in the tie is an okay thing he can't throw it on because it may be the only thing available so of course that makes it seem as if he was just throwing it on. But that's all he has in his wardrobe.
Robert Lipsyte 23:05
But you like suits and ties
Anne Hollander 23:06
Oh Yes, I think suits and ties are very sexy. And I always have.
Robert Lipsyte 23:09
Why? because they exude power.
Anne Hollander 23:12
Oh no, although that's supposed to be the reason very often and of course there is that the people who want to read the message rather than look at the effect will say it because it's just power. But in fact, the effect the shapes and forms and lines of suits are very attractive and compelling because they are always breaking up into beautiful folds. Every time the man crosses his legs or bends his arm like this, the whole system breaks into lovely shapes, and the shirt wrinkles nicely and the tie flows. And it all has a certain delightful reference to the body under it, which is quite different from the way women's clothes work, but no less compelling. To those that are watching, I think, at least to me
Robert Lipsyte 23:55
Well, I really feel a lot better than when I started. Ron Shamask. Thank you so very much for being with us and for your representatives Anne Hollander, thanks so much.
Interviews end, Host Lipsyte cuts to next segment.
Host Lipsyte standing in front of cartoon depictions of male mannequins in dressed in different styles talks about embarrassing "husky" style clothing designed in the 1950's to hide "wayward flesh".
Show ends, credits over dressed up male mannequins
Charitable foundations credits over The Eleventh Hour graphic.
Description: The Eleventh Hour, Show #173 Title: Fashion Guests: Richard Martin, Curator; Ronadlus Shamask,Men's Clothing Designer; Ann Hollander, Fashion Historian Original Broadcast Date: 4-21-89 Topic: Host Robert Lipsyte visits Fashion Institute of Technology's exhibit called "Jocks and Nerds". And with the help of curator, Richard Martin, and a dozen provocatively dressed mannequins, Robert explores his fashion identity: is he the jock, the nerd, the sportsman, the worker, Joe College, the hunter, the businessman, the dandy, the man-about-town, the rebel, the military man, or perhaps the cowboy?
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