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00:01:28 88.95 |
Title Card: The Eleventh Hour #140 - Revolution by Fax, Rec: 6/8/89
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00:01:54 114.88 |
Funding for program announced and overlay show graphic.
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00:02:10 130.51 |
The Eleventh Hour graphic and show opener.
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00:02:42 162.02 |
Host Robert Lipsyte announces The Eleventh Hour, welcomes viewers, and talks about the topic and theme of today's program.
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00:02:50 170.5 |
Map of China with the Chinese national flag overlay as Robert Lipsyte narrates about how most people there have no access to current events. However, as Lipsyte reports, news stories are currently being disseminated out of China by Chinese students through the use of fax (facsimile) machines and the implications these news stories have on government controlled China.
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00:02:58 178.55 |
Photo still of a combat tank in the streets of China with bicyclists riding by, a small yellow TV overlay with the word "censored" in red.
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00:03:08 188.44 |
Grainy photo still - group of bicyclists in China, one pulling a wooden "bed" with a man laying down on it.
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00:03:18 198.22 |
Same photo of bicyclists - as Lipsyte narrates about news leaking out of China through "electronic media" notably the facsimile machine - various overlays such as a red telephone and speakers cover the photo.
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00:03:26 206.7 |
Big yellow fax machine overlay the Chinese flag and protestors holding signs, faux fax coming out of machine "Phone calls to China have risen from 10,000 to 36,000 per day."
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00:03:59 239.44 |
Host Lipsyte introduces first two guests, Chinese students from Columbia University, Dong Xiao and Huainan Wang.
Interview Inserted: Robert Lipsyte: Huainan and Dong Xiao. Welcome. Dong Xiao. You're an industrial engineering student. You're from Shanghai. So I'll ask you the kind of the hardware question. In in the beginning, how did you get the idea to use the facsimile machine in this way? Dong Xiao: I think we come up, come up with this idea for a long time. And at first, the beginning, you know, we feel very exciting about Chinese students about democracy movement in China. And we think we should support them. And also here, we made a lot of demonstration to support them. Robert Lipsyte: But How long have you been using the facsimile machine to transmit into China? Dong Xiao: And I think, after the martial law has been announced, and the news media is, you know, heavily broken, and by the this kind of dictator, government, you know, and so at that time, we think that we should elect the Chinese people, Chinese student to know more about what's happening in China. And so I think when we just coming back from Washington, we, several students in the car, we discussed something, we should do some real things. And then we came up with this idea. And we should send that fax machine. So we were taking this action and keep to sending this information we can get back to China. Robert Lipsyte: A great idea on a on a car ride. Huainan, you're a graduate sociology students, I'll ask you the first sociological question, in terms of of how this works on a day to day basis. What time do you wake up in the morning to start transmitting? I mean, how do Huainan Wang: We cover time, you know, you have a new sound air, for example, 7:20, there's a CBS Morning News. And then there's ABC, good morning, America. Usually, we're following news first, and make a call, you know, anytime we want to feel the situation getting severe and severe. And I would say that communication with Chai, mostly one way is like, you know, we're sending back information to Beijing and outside areas, mostly from New York, to Beijing, but very rarely will get information back. Robert Lipsyte: How do you know you're being effective? Huainan Wang: Well, I was sick is that the information China is highly restrained. So in Beijing, even in Beijing, that people in other you know, in different areas don't know what's happening, other sections, and especially in outside areas in China, you know, people doesn't don't really know what's happening in Beijing. So I think that faxing back informations, hopefully, you know, somebody at the end in the other end in China would pick it up and read it. And if he or she is courageous enough, he will be, you know, distributed to other people. In that way. I think at least it will be helpful. Yeah. Robert Lipsyte: Mr. Xiao, this is all very expensive. I mean, you must owe AT&T a lot of money. How, how do you pay for all this? Dong Xiao (NT-3140) 06:50 Actually, we just made a foundation, and to try to raise money, and to support the Chinese student movement. And, and we just raised a foundation called the Foundation of Chinese Students For Democracy. So we hope that by this foundation, we can raising money, Robert Lipsyte: How much does it cost per day, do you think, to do your work, Dong Xiao (NT-3140) 07:17 we didn't have to calculate that because the form began to come. And also that some society has helpers for, for them some human beings, society, and help us to provide some free in line in a free text machine. Robert Lipsyte: These are companies and firms in New York, or that allowing you to use their machines. Dong Xiao: society. Yeah. And also my friends, something friends, they have already a student, and now they are running some companies into that. And they also allowed us to use you know, fax machine. Robert Lipsyte: Mr. Huainan in, as I understand that, of course, you need a number to dial a fax machine in China. How do you know with information so hard to come back into the United States, how do you know what number to dial? Huainan Wang: We get a number, even in Beijing or Shanghai Robert Lipsyte: In Beijing or Shanghai Huainan Wang: We have a couple numbers on hand, mostly, you know, we found them from the bog, right, like the business companies' phone number, and fax number. And usually, we found those companies outside of Beijing, and instead of fax back there. Robert Lipsyte: But but you don't really know, 1). whether anybody is actually getting it 2). whether they're reading it, or even sometimes to whom the messages are going, in a sense, in electronic way, you're stuffing it in a bottle and throwing it out into the ocean. Huainan Wang: Dong Xiao: But I think from a statistic point of view, it's worthwhile to do that. And I think a lot because nowadays, a lot of people in China, they sympathetic to the student movement, and many of them join that, so many of them willing to do that. And, and, obviously, there's some fear of, you know, the pressure of the government. And they're not there to do that. But even though they personally know that, and they will announce that in their relatives and friends. So in that concentration, we said we should do more. And, you know, if we have them as effect, and we know when, you know, 1/3 of them can go to students hand, they went through that. Robert Lipsyte: And also, I mean, it gives you a chance to be involved in this in this upheaval. Otherwise, you'll be cut after. what had been your plans before the, the the uprising, you would come to this country from Shanghai getting your PhD in industrial engineering. And what were your plans? to go back to China? Dong Xiao : Yeah, or anything? I think I would go back and use my knowledge alone, you know, pa degree and the service for my country for my people, you know, and recently Chinese need a lot of high tech, you know, so we learned that and we just you know, Robert Lipsyte: But now, but now has that changed? Dong Xiao: But now right now, is that Ching No, I should See what's happened in, in China? I think this can dictate the government. Actually, I feel disgusting to say this is Chinese government, because they said nothing, you know, even cannot represent the Communist Party members. And so I will, you know, see what's the situation will change, I think they will change. But uh, Robert Lipsyte: But you have to wait and see if the situation will change. Huainan, what about your decision? What What were your plans, Huainan Wang: I came to the states one year ago with this sort of determination to go back to China after graduation, because my major sociology, my origin of plan is to get a deeper and thorough understanding of the American side to bring better information and knowledge I have gained in the United States. Now, I think, you know, have to wait and see, as Mr. Dong Xiao, did. And But first, I will say, you know, in the long run, and ultimately, we will all go back. Yeah, because it's our country. Robert Lipsyte: Yes, it is. And before we're out of time, would you hold up? This is this is a copy of something that you.. |
00:11:05 665.72 |
Guest Huainan Wang holding up an example of a typical fax that they would send to Beijing.
Huainan Wang: "This is the type of typical thing that we send back, usually through the fax machine to Beijing. This is clip of Chinese local newspaper here in New York City. And we send it back to different areas, mostly out of Beijing." |
00:11:17 677.75 |
Host Lipsyte thanks Dong and Huainan and announces what's coming up and cuts to break.
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00:11:26 686.76 |
Fade out. The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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00:11:30 690.41 |
Host Robert Lipsyte returns and introduces his next guest, Jay Rosen, Assistant Professor of Journalism and Mass Communications at New York University.
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00:11:34 694.95 |
Interview Inserted:
Robert Lipsyte: Jay, welcome. We've been calling this revolution by faxes. Is that accurate? Jay Rosen: Well, I think there's a there's a big element of revolutionary activity. A revolution is a very mysterious sort of thing is the kind of alchemy that goes on, you need not only people who are willing to revolt, but the feeling that a lot of other people are willing to also. And of course, that's a communications problem. Now, the government will always try to control communication. But I think with the fax, we see how difficult that has become. Robert Lipsyte: well, how different is the fax, really, I mean, in terms of other ways of sending things just seems merely speedier, and more accurate? Jay Rosen: Well, it's speedier, and speed is a very important factor in any fast moving event. The faxes enable people in China to learn much more about what they themselves are doing than they otherwise would. And it's prevented the government from keeping that sentiment of revolutionary revolt from spreading, it's prevented the government from controlling that spread. And I think the fact that it's instant or almost instant, makes the fax a player in events, and it makes the people controlling the fax at this end participants in something that they otherwise would just read about or hear about. Robert Lipsyte: Well, in that sense of the medium being the message again, I mean, faxes is now in a sense, the freedom to use the fax. And the freedom to use the fax to send information from a place with free expression to one without. Also, in a sense, sends the idea of free expression. Jay Rosen: That's right. The fact that in this country, technologies, like the fax, the phone, television are completely free, uncontrolled, and everyone can find out what's going on, is being sort of exported to China, through telephone lines. The freedom that we enjoy here, and the resources that we enjoy here to gather information to discuss it and to make facts widely known, is being sent to China and is becoming a factor in events in China. And this is a kind of export of our values that I think we ought to really think about and treasure. Robert Lipsyte: And you've been following this very closely. Do you have any sense of how those two things, both the information that's being sent by fax and the fact that there is this kind of liberating technology in the world affecting events there? Jay Rosen: Well, as I said before, one of the things people who are resisting government have to know is that others feel the way they do. And when, for example, a photograph appearing in the United States of tremendous resistance and violence by the government is faxed to China, Xerox and then plastered on walls. The events in China begin to affect everyone and the government's attempt to control information which it does by controlling its own media, become that much more difficult. It used to be the government could control media fairly easily because things like television are centralized and easily controlled. But with the phone system, which is decentralized, that whole operation becomes much more difficult. Robert Lipsyte: It's interesting, because in terms of that kind of reaction, on one hand, the free press in in Hong Kong, they're publishing newspapers, the size of fax machines, yeah, so they can send them out. And the government in China is now alluding to the fact that something's going on, but when they're showing dead bodies, it's always the dead bodies of soldiers. Jay Rosen: Yes. Robert Lipsyte : Not students. Jay Rosen: Yes, Well, in addition to that, I mentioned what you mentioned in Hong Kong, Taiwan has decided to end restrictions on phone calls and mail for the first time in 40 years. And I heard that the government of Los Angeles has made its fax machines available to anybody who wants to fax to Britain. And one of the results of this is that the Chinese government's attempts to portray its version of events is falling flat. And in a way, it's counterproductive. If everyone knows that worse things have happened. And you go on television in your government broadcast and say, "Don't worry, there's no big deal, or it's mainly protesters who've been violent," then this helps to delegitimize the government. And there's very little the government can do when contrary information is circulating. It can't admit what's happened, it can't say nothing. And if it shows just protesters being violent, then it's obviously no longer a source of information. I think that's what's happened to the government. Robert Lipsyte: And also that I hate to use the word synergy between television and fax. Jay Rosen: Very important, I think, television has created an audience in America, of witnesses, people who verify that these things have happened, that they are now historical events they've passed into the record. And whenever you're dealing with the violent deeds of government, the power of the witness is very great, because it ensures that these events can never be wiped away. Now, in addition to that, the fax is making not only as witnesses, but certain people here, participants. We're able to both witness what's going on, and to try as best we can to influence it. And simply by watching our televisions and reacting emotionally to what we've seen. We've seen, for example, Congress put pressure on President Bush to restrict certain arms sales to China. So that's a very direct political effect of our being able to witness these events. |
00:16:59 1019.17 |
Host Lipsyte ends this portion of interview with Jay Rosen and announces next guest to join them after break.
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00:17:06 1026.76 |
The Eleventh Hour Graphic
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00:17:09 1029.76 |
Host Lipsyte returns and introduces Everett E. Dennis, Executive Director of the Gannett Center for Media Studies joining Jay Rosen.
Inserted Interview: Robert Lipsyte : And with the facts now we've become interactive with our television sets. Thanks. Thanks, Jay Rosen and I will be back with a leader in communication scholarship. Joining us now Everette Dennis, Executive Director of the Gannett Center for Media Study. Welcome. So in terms of the the facts revolution, we've been talking about incenting, not only information, but values. One wonders what would have happened, what could still happen in terms of other places- Poland, South Africa. What do you think? Everette E. Dennis: I think many of the same kinds of things could happen, I suppose. The Iranian Revolution is perhaps the one of the best examples, one of the first things that the Ayatollah Khomeini did when he came to power was to cut off long distance direct dialing, and that was because he had formented that revolution from Paris by making speeches over the telephone and having them copied on to cassettes, and sent around the country. And he could he could make his way into the Iranian society, even though the shock control the media. We could see the same kind of thing, I think, happening in South Africa. And I think it might now start at the South Africans were very successful at ejecting the foreign press and really cutting down news coverage of South Africa. I think if the US media were committed to, to really very extensive coverage of South Africa, we'd see that happen. It's certainly possible in Poland now, in fact, would be very easy to have a lot of transmissions from Poland. I think what's going on in Poland is easier, a little easier to cover. It isn't as exciting as China and so, obviously, a revolution is more interesting than something that's just a ballot box routine that is really happening in Poland, at present time. Robert Lipsyte : Whenever we're ultimately talking about the control of information, right. And in a sense, we get the feeling that has the control of information passed on because of the facts onto people's hands. Jay Rosen: I think it really has and, and in addition to the facts, I think we have to talk about the loss of control that comes from the other communications technologies. Now, and probably his most famous remark said power grows out of the barrel of a gun. But there's a sense now in which sort of the opposite thing is true. That is power goes to the person who faces the barrel of the gun, when it's being televised. That person who faced down the tank in Tiananmen Square, a great deal of image power accrued to him, because he was facing the barrel of a gun and was himself unarmed. And that kind of power, the symbolic power that comes from people resisting huge forces like the military, which of course, the Palestinians also employed in the uprising, is very difficult for a government to control. Even if you cut off transmissions, satellite transmission from China, people have been surreptitiously taping events themselves and smuggling the tapes out asking foreigners to bring them to Hong Kong and then from Hong Kong, they're satellited to the United States. So governments are finding it very difficult to control not only information, but image symbols meaning. And I think we're seeing that quite a bit in China Robert Lipsyte: And do you think that, that we're going to see any kind of change in either global politics or global journalism, because of the facts in this kind of interactive play? |
00:20:15 1215.4 |
Interview Insert continues:
Everette E. Dennis: I think we will, because in a way national barriers have come down, it isn't really possible for a government by edict anymore to cut off, they can cut off a transmission, they really can't cut off the flow of communication, or the kind of interactive work that Jay has been talking about here. So I think that we will see changes in the way we cover various countries, the kind of information that could come back and forth. It really is a realization, I think of the the information society that we used to talk about is a convergence of all kinds of media, they, you see the Chinese language press in San Francisco playing a major role now in getting and transmitting information from China, you see telephone calls, going to the Voice of America, even though the Voice of America is now being jammed in China, they're getting 1000s of calls a week back in, it's just an extraordinary time to sort of reassess how we, I think, look at the rest of the world and how we know that we're getting a representative picture of it, because that's another worrisome thing. We don't want to assume that all of China is is based in Tianneman Square, that China is a very complex society we know very little about, and we're getting very calibrated images that are being brought to us by people who want us to see those images. And that isn't always to our benefit at the present time. I think because we agree with the ideology, what's going on in China, that this is a pleasing experience for us. If it were something where we were being manipulated by a government somewhere else, we might not like it. And so I think we have to be very vigilant from a journalistic perspective as to how we sort that out and determine whether it's accurate or not, what kind of validation is needed to determine whether something really happened, or whether it was staged strictly for media. Robert Lipsyte: But in a sense, that's not anything new. I mean, and also, I think I heard a couple of minutes ago, you talking about how the network's you know, really been committed to covering South Africa? Do I want to come back to that, but in terms of that kind of manipulation and the tyranny of the photo opportunity? There's there's nothing new in that, is there? Except that in this case, we've seen people who are not journalists, and we're not government officials, or take control of the information movement? That's right. Everette E. Dennis: But I think that even that's not new- and go back to the French Revolution. All kinds of writers had to get their messages through in philosophical tracks and in very subtle ways, because they, they, they had to pass the censor. And in a way, that's always the kind of issue How do you communicate a revolution? And how do people be either the those on this side are those they're communicate back and forth through the barriers that government tries to set up? Robert Lipsyte : You have a- Jay Jay feels it that speed is time is of the essence? And it says speed is a great factor? Jay Rosen: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you if you have the same information, but moving day by day, as opposed to week by week, then that makes up for a big loss of control on the government's part. Everette E. Dennis: There's a cumulative factor though, too, that's more than speed. I think it over time when people look back at this and, and they validate, or they don't validate what might have happened three or four weeks ago, depending on what's happening now. And I think there are some things where speed gives you the wrong impression. Jay Rosen : Mmhmm. Everette E. Dennis: That could happen. Jay Rosen: I want to go back to one point Ev said, though, I think media manipulation has gotten sort of a bad name. If you look at the creation of the goddess of freedom, the Statue of Liberty that the students put up, they put that up knowing that it would get a lot of coverage, knowing that probably would have to be torn down. And in that sense, it was a media event. However, the statue itself was a very real expression of their aspirations. And it's tearing down by the government was a very real act. That was a very violent act that had a lot of meaning for what was going on in China. So here's a case where an event that was cooked up for the media is not entirely false, or even misleading. I think it's a very accurate but symbolic event. Robert Lipsyte : Well, I think that, as Ev pointed out, maybe, you know, it is the fact that that kind of nicked with your political orientation, Jay Rosen: In this case, yes. Robert Lipsyte : and you were you were reactive positively and emotionally to that where you might not to something else that came at you a lot faster, or what what's going to happen, though, in terms of the choices that countries have to make. If China or anywhere else is to enter the Economic Community of the world, they're going to have to have, among other things, lots of fax machines. But if you do have lots of fax machines, then you're not going to be able to totally control information. How are these choices, do you think going to be made, how it's going to change? Everette E. Dennis: Well, they're going to have to change the whole regime of government regulation of media, of the regulation of journalists and the licensing of journalists and the control over people. One of the factors to that we've talked about earlier, is the how many young Chinese journalists have been educated in this country in the last 5 to 10 years, an enormous number, who now have significant positions in the Shin Hua news agency and elsewhere. I mean, already, we're seeing that kind of an influence have, in effect American the export the exportation of the First Amendment, or our values in effect back into China, or maybe there are universal values with regard to freedom of communication, the ability and the right of people to communicate. And I just, I agree with Jay, that manipulation isn't always a bad thing it can be, it can be a very good thing, and it can be staged for very noble purposes. Robert Lipsyte: Now, there was always the talk about if the networks were really committed to certain kinds of coverage, they would seed certain countries with video cameras, and have cassette some back, is there some lesson in here about seeding some countries with facsimile machines to to get information back and forth. Jay Rosen: Well. I think that it's going to be no choice eventually. Politics can still be national, it can still be contained within a nation- it still makes sense for China to say this is our affair, but economics is not. And it's increasingly global. And if you're going to be in the world, economically, you're going to need things like phone system, fax system, computer links, etc. The only choices as far as I can see are more and more decentralization of information technology, like the fax or a complete withdrawal from the Western world, similar to what Khomeini tried in Iran. I don't see any middle way and I think that even if China manages to suppress the current dissent, this potential of revolutions with decentralized technology is always going to be there. Robert Lipsyte: We're almost out of time, Ev. Which way do you think China is going to go? Everette E. Dennis: Oh I think China will eventually be a much more open society. But I think the the next few months may be very brutal and we we may see a very limited kind of coverage from China, they will try to control in the short run the flow of information, there's no doubt about it. Robert Lipsyte: In any In any case, I guess we can feel that the facts right now is mightier than the sword and the pen.Everette Dennis, Jay Rose, and thanks so very much for being with us. |
00:27:17 1637.28 |
Interview concludes.
Host Lipsyte introduces the show and himself. |
00:27:19 1639.29 |
Show credits over The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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00:28:18 1698.13 |
Charitable funding for the program announced and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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00:28:31 1711.01 |
Reel Ends.
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