19891980s NEWS
The Eleventh Hour, Show #122
Title: John Williams
Guest: John A. Williams, African American Writer, Journalist, Teacher
Original Broadcast Date: 2-10-89
Title: John Williams
Guest: John A. Williams, African American Writer, Journalist, Teacher
Original Broadcast Date: 2-10-89
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| 00:01:42 1.54 |
Title Slate: The Eleventh Hour #122, John Williams, Rec 2/8/89
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| 00:01:44 4.23 |
Blank
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| 00:02:04 23.63 |
Funding for the show announced and overlay on The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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| 00:02:12 31.35 |
The Eleventh Hour graphic and show opener
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| 00:02:33 53.04 |
Show opens wide shot Host Robert Lipsyte at his desk reading a book, looks up and welcomes audience to the show. Camera zooms in and reveals large poster of Martin Luther King, Jr.. Lipsyte talks about his upcoming guest, Author/Journalist, John A. Williams, who writes about his Black heroes, real people, sometimes in an uncomplimentary way. Lipsyte notes the books Williams authored, "The King God Didn't save", "The Man Who Cried I am" and "Captain Blacklman".
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| 00:03:15 94.82 |
Cut to The Eleventh Hour graphic
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| 00:03:20 99.76 |
Host Lipsyte returns sitting at a small table with his guest, John A. Williams. B&W poster of ? behind Lipsyte. Z'in on John Williams and interview begins.
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| 00:03:28 108.09 |
INSERT INTERVIEW:
Robert Lipsyte: ...John, 20 books. Some of them have been called great- critics don't know what to do with you. They call you angry, sometimes. Does it make you angry when the critics call you angry? John A. Williams: No, cuz I know I'm sweet and lovable, and my grandchildren think so. And my wife believes so most times angry comes from the title that was applied to my very first novel in 1960. That was not the title that I applied to the book, the publisher did it. It was a paperback original. And it stuck. I suppose to some degree, I'm called angry because I think I know what the hell I'm talking about. And I'm not supposed to. Robert Lipsyte: Do you think a black writer who writes the way he wants to write, and is perceptive and tough will get that label faster than a white writer? John A. Williams: Undoubtedly. Yes. Yes. It's been suggested that I write like, other black writers. Robert Lipsyte: How is a black writer supposed to write? John A. Williams: Like white people want them to. Robert Lipsyte: Mmhmm. How do you think white people want you to write passively, John A. Williams: Passively. Robert Lipsyte: Passively? John A. Williams: Don't deal with the present, or the past, don't deal with particular issues that affect black people, and also white people. Don't rock the boat. Robert Lipsyte: And there's a thread to that the phrase you use of "besting white." The idea that a black hero has to best the white man. John A. Williams: Well, we're always told that by our parents, we were and I guess still are, that you have to be two or three times better than then a white person in order to, to beat 'im, at least to get on the same level with him in 1989. Robert Lipsyte: In 1989 is that still true? John A. Williams: It's still true. Robert Lipsyte: And nothing, nothing is. John A. Williams : Nothing has changed and appears to to have changed, but it hasn't. Robert Lipsyte : Well, we'll take the historical view and you're going to read from Captain Black Man, which is about a tough black man in uniform, in a kind of a mystical sweep through all the wars the country fought. John A. Williams: All right Robert Lipsyte: Johnny Williams from Captain Black Man. |
| 00:05:29 229.16 |
Sitting at table with Robert Lipsyte, John Williams reads an excerpt from his book, Captain Black Man
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| 00:08:23 402.44 |
Reading ends. Interview continues:
Robert Lipsyte: That's why they call you tough, John. Yeah, that that grew out of- I remember at the time you were going to do a Vietnam nonfiction book. John A. Williams: That's right. Robert Lipsyte: And it's kind of evolved, but and I think, stop me, one of the problems was that you had this sense, which was not the conventional wisdom of the time, that black and white were not really coming together. John A. Williams: Yes, absolutely. I didn't believe it. There's a lot of publicity, but I never believed it. Robert Lipsyte : Well, would do you think that the Vietnam War in any way changed the relationship between black men and white men? John A. Williams: No. I think there was a lot of publicity coming out about the new democracy that was being created in Vietnam. But if you look at the situation today, obviously, none of that helped. Robert Lipsyte: And sports teams don't help either. I mean, all the ways that collectively black and white, are supposed to John A. Williams: You would think that somebody would be smart enough to say, "hey, we got this integrated team except maybe basketball. And let's get these guys out here to talk about something other than the "Nike sneakers." But it doesn't work. Robert Lipsyte: Yeah. Well, I mean, part of the thing that as a sports writer I used to remember was that after the ball game, first of all, they lockered us on different sides of the room. But after the game, they went to different clubs, different parts of town, and they did not really associate. Why? Is this ever going to happen? John A. Williams: Not in my lifetime. Why not? Because I think the forces are too old and too powerful to ever permit it. The way we dream, or at least dreamt once that it could have happened. Robert Lipsyte: You thought once it would. John A. Williams: I believed it once. Growing up as a kid, although there were some signs that things would not change. There were some signs, yes. Robert Lipsyte: Now sports was important to you? John A. Williams: Sports was important to me. Robert Lipsyte: Yeah. John A. Williams: It was, perhaps ,the only thing we had in Syracuse, you know, we, we had relatively integrated neighborhoods, all poor people. We didn't have integrated schools, which meant that you could take out an Irish guy or a Jewish guy, an Italian guy, and nobody would lynch you for it. So you really got your rocks off playing ball. Robert Lipsyte: So you got a whole wrong slant on things growing up in Syracuse. John A. Williams: It was helpful. Uh huh. Robert Lipsyte: So when you came to New York, as a writer, you expected you could keep on going like that? John A. Williams: No, I didn't, because I had some time in the service and some experiences in the service. And I knew it wouldn't be like that. Robert Lipsyte: Yeah, one of one of the things that another thread besides sports is this kind of aspect of black men collectively, coming together doing something together, which is something you don't really see in fiction that much. That's why "The Junior Bachelor Society"was such thing. I'd like to talk about that. But first, first, the clip. This was an NBC mini series called "Sophisticated Gents", which is based on John's novel called the "Junior Bachelor Society". This scene is part of the drench reunion with their boyhood coach. |
| 00:11:20 579.33 |
Cut to scene from an NBC mini series, Sophisticated Gents, based on John William's novel, "The Junior Bachelor Society"
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| 00:12:19 638.79 |
Returning to the studio and the interview, Host Lipsyte and John Williams are seen, heads turned, looking at small television. They turn back around and interview with Williams resumes.
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| 00:12:45 665.19 |
INTERVIEW INSERT CONTINUES:
Robert Lipsyte: Well, they were, they were lucky. They had a they had a coach and they had almost themselves and the group as as a hero. But the idea of so many heroes, black heroes, are really assigned by white society, aren't they? John A. Williams : Some are, particularly ones who are labeled first. But of course, a hero just happens to be there at the right time and the right place. For the white media to make something else of it is is almost standard practice. Robert Lipsyte: Yeah. Well, I mean, the the king, that God didn't save your book about Martin Luther King, which was considered very controversial at the time, not later, but at the time, it was controversial. And I think the thread there too, was that this was a hero promoted by white society. John A. Williams: Yeah, well, the Malcolm X was the other side of that coin. And I know that at least in New York, the the press guys liked Malcolm more than they did Martin. He was no nonsense. He wasn't a preacher. But both these guys were two sides of the same coin. You take your pick! Do you want non violence? Or do you want an eye for an eye? And I'm sure that most black people felt equally about both these guys. Robert Lipsyte: Do you think Malcolm was promoted by white society as well? John A. Williams: Oh, no, no. Not at all. Negatively? Robert Lipsyte: Negatively? John A. Williams: Sure. Robert Lipsyte : But that that, that everybody was kind of pushed towards Martin Luther King as the role model. John A. Williams: Yes. Robert Lipsyte: But do you think that is that still happening? John A. Williams: That's more passive, that's more acceptable? Robert Lipsyte : What does that happening now? I mean, who should we be looking at for now? Who's John A. Williams: Well, everybody got on Jesse Jackson's case, but they didn't have an alternative to present. Had there been one he would have or she would have been presented? Robert Lipsyte: Someone easier, someone softer? John A. Williams: Someone easier, someone softer. Someone not so filled with the fire and brimstone of our traditional preachers, someone who didn't make as much sense as Jackson did. Robert Lipsyte : Yeah. It's interesting. You know, we're fed sports heroes, black sports heroes, because that's part of the way we as white people are supposed to look at blacks. And yet in this current controversy between George Steinbrenner of the Yankees and Dave Winfield, immediately, the press seems to have lined up behind Steinbrenner. John A. Williams: Yeah, that's kind of strange, but, but not unusual. One has the feeling, or I do as somebody who is very much involved in sports and who still loves them, that there is a sense that perhaps there are too many great black athletes, that something's got to be done to stem the tide. You know, I hear people talking about let's go to the spade ball game, basketballI I guess. And that's that's an indication that Robert Lipsyte: Is that black people talking or white people talking? John A. Williams: White people usually, yeah. We black people have something else. It's just our ballgame. You know, our thing. And apparently, we do run it, at least on the court, in terms of the money and so on so forth. Forget it. But that's that's another reason why nothing is going to change. Robert Lipsyte: Where do you fit into this mix? I mean, as a as a black writer with a conscience and really strong feelings about this thing, do you think it's part of your responsibility beyond your art? To kick ass and take names? John A. Williams: Oh, yes, definitely. Robert Lipsyte : You do? John A. Williams : I do. Robert Lipsyte 14:07 Well, you certainly shown it in your work we're going to look at, it's something else. This is a scene from the movie Sweet Love Bitter, starring Dick Gregory. It was based on John's novel Night Song, which was inspired by the jazz musician Charlie Parker. |
| 00:16:00 859.41 |
Host Lipsyte introduces a scene from the film, Sweet Love Bitter, starring Dick Gregory and based on Williams' book, "Night Song", which was based on the Black jazz musician, Charlie Parker.
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| 00:16:12 871.93 |
Cut to scene from the film, Night Song.
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| 00:17:48 967.37 |
Back to the studio, Lipsyte and Williams watching small tv. Interview continues.
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| 00:17:57 976.32 |
INSERT INTERVIEW:
Robert Lipsyte: That there are a couple of things in that film a couple of people are talking about for a moment because you know that that theme that you know you've you've used the term the outlaw, other people talk about the quote, "bad nigger." The, the idea of the man who rises above the oppression of the society, and what you had in there is is of course, Charlie Parker, who did his thing, but also the guy who played him Dick Gregory sort of did his thing, too. And you wrote about him? Where do they fit into this? John A. Williams: Well, Greg, of course, was the first quote, first "black stand up comedian." I remember covering him at the Blue Angel years ago. And he had a tough time getting started and a lot of coverage, he became a first. The edge was taken off a lot of the points that he made, because they were, the press said that they were coded in, in this kind of humor, which doesn't mean that they were not true and not to the point. So he became kind of, I think they're waiting for him to leave the stage and become a civil rights activist, but couldn't wait to get rid of them. So he left, otherwise, I think he would still be quite pungent. Robert Lipsyte : And then they stopped booking him. They said, "well, we can't get insurance." You might be down in Birmingham at a rally and you wouldn't come back. Well, your interest kind of went on from there to Richard Pryor. You had, I remember, really interesting things to saying you actually even wrote a book, did it ever appear? John A. Williams: I don't want to get into publishing disasters here "did not appear". It has it has it hasn't published, Robert Lipsyte : Alright, we don't have much time, John, to talk about publishing disasters- tell tell tell me about Richard Pryor. John A. Williams : Well, I liked his humor. And I could see that he'd come through a long line of black humors. I knew that he was doing some things, changes in the script, as the shootings were going on. And I think, I know he appealed greatly to some wicked Colonel within the black community the things that he was saying, the new Negro, how the Asians were going to replace the black people and this that and the other. Talking about Nixon, talking about Hollywood and how thin and tinsel he was. He said a lot of things that were important to me and I'm sure to a lot of people who are black and a lot of whites as well. Robert Lipsyte: Somehow the voice seems stilled. John A. Williams: Yes, I did see a clip of him about a week or so ago. He looks quite well. I don't know why he he dropped the option he held on, on bird he was supposed to do that. Instead of wound up with Clint Eastwood same the same movie get Robert Lipsyte: Well I'd like to kind of get on to what you're working on right now., which I find kind of startling. I was I was about to say it's about a black gay but it's not because this is during World War Two. So it's really about an American Negro homosexual musician in the Dachau concentration camp. Perhaps you could read something from the book without a title. John A. Williams: Okay, this is gonna be a short scene where a couple who who, who have read the the diary the journal which Clifford leaves behind, while they go to visit this camp on the basis of having read that thing. |
| 00:21:12 1171.5 |
John Williams reads an excerpt from an untitled novel he is currently working on about an American negro homosexual musician during World War II in the Dachau concentration camp.
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| 00:24:54 1393.98 |
Williams stops reading from novel and INTERVIEW INSERT CONTINUES:
Robert Lipsyte: John, you just don't quit. A black, a black man in Dachau. Yes. This was not a figment of your imagination. John A. Williams : No. Robert Lipsyte: How did you come to this? John A. Williams : '66 my wife and I were traveling through Europe, we happen to stop at Dachau and at that time, I didn't know that the museum had been opened over a year. So he had a series of ID photos. And among the photos were two black men. I wondered how they got there, never paid much attention to it. The book began to grow over the years. Then I checked back some 20 years later, found that there had been black people there, did some more research, found some pictures. They were there. Robert Lipsyte: Well did that mean anything to you? I mean, obviously, just because you found the pictures is not enough to start a book it must- it touched something. John A. Williams: Well, it touched something because I think the for black people, the only way to really relate to something that catastrophic would have been, is slavery. So I can see some some sense of empathy there. And also, once again, we've had this this business where black people have been excluded. I'm not saying, obviously millions didn't die., I think perhaps 500. But again, as Walter Cronkite used to say, we are there. Robert Lipsyte: Yeah, now a touchy subject. You know, okay, you guys can have slavery, but the Holocaust belongs to the Jews. John A. Williams: Well, that's that's not true. I know. That's the way things have worked out. Slavery belongs to everybody, the Holocaust belongs to everybody. Robert Lipsyte: Why? John A. Williams: Because we're all human beings. You are my brother. I am yours. And if we don't ever get to that point, and I don't think we will soon. I think we will have lost at all. Robert Lipsyte: Do you think do you think a book like this will will startle people? I know, the thought of it startled me. John A. Williams: There have been some indications, yes. Robert Lipsyte: This is not going to be a publishing disaster story. John A. Williams: It may be. Robert Lipsyte: It may be yes. But you really think that that kind of kind of coming together people finally finding out that they're all in the boat? John A. Williams: I think it's gotta happen! If it doesn't, we're lost! I mean, I think there's a cycle. A reason why so many different people have gathered in this country, perhaps as many different people is a word during the Roman Empire, for some purpose. I'm genuinely not a very mystical person, but there has to be a reason, and here we are. And somehow we can't make the boat go. Robert Lipsyte: And we're gonna have to. Johnny Williams, thank you very much for joining us. This is the 11th hour. I'm Robert Lipsyte. |
| 00:25:13 1412.77 |
Williams narrates over a black and white photo from the Dachau Concentration Camp museum he had visited. The photo is of two black men, prisoners at the concentration camp, Dachau. Zoom in on black prisoner in the photo.
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| 00:27:32 1552.06 |
Interview concludes. Host Lipsyte announces the show and introduces himself.
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| 00:27:47 1566.76 |
Credits over show graphics.
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| 00:28:39 1618.97 |
Funding from charitable organization announced and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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| 00:28:58 1637.4 |
Reel ends.
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