David Susskind brings back The Fugs: Ed Sanders, Ken Weaver and Tuli Kupferberg
Do you fellas have any religion of any kind? Do you Ed Do you believe in anything any god
Ed Sanders 0:48
I believe that the universe is run by forces which we barely understand and as a physical entity it's something to be revered and as a as a you know, a mystical phenomenon to be experienced in terms in periods of enlightenment and I think you know as you know as a as a religious as a formal religion I don't I don't have any but as as as terms of having incredible respect for the universe. I guess it is religion.
David Susskind 1:15
Dr. Larry's said on many occasions that he finds in LSD a mystical experience that he comes closer to the Divinity through the use of LSD if you find that to be true, Ken?
Ken Weaver 1:31
I find I found myself personally I found an innocence and with sprinkled with I don't know magical qualities and I suppose you could say that divinity divinity I don't know it's just a word
Ed Sanders 1:53
What did God look like, Ken? what does she look like?
Ken Weaver 2:01
I don't know. sort of get along it Shazam that's who he is really. Billy Batson buddy. And you're familiar we're familiar with Captain Marvel Comics we're, there's there's a quite often a scene where Billy Batson gets lured down into the subway, tunnel by man in a flop hat and he takes him takes him into a long chamber with statues on each side with greed and avarice and bigotry. And there's all Shazam sitting down at the end. He's really a great looking cat. He's got long white hair and big beard, but that's a comic book God, I don't know. I don't know if they're real. And if there is one looks like that might be hermaphrodite, I suspect it is
David Susskind 2:49
Do you pause or perform under the influence of drugs? Does it help you as an artist?
Tuli Kupferberg 2:55
Well, it helps me relate to people I get under an under an ecstatic experience. I get very affectionate. And that's always helpful, you know, helps you grow man that's we could use more or affection.
David Susskind 3:11
Is marijuana and an affection inducing drug?
Ed Sanders 3:14
Yes. Helps you a blip.
Tuli Kupferberg 3:18
Yeah, this is this is what this is what people who have opposed drugs like even coffee and tobacco down through the ages, you know, used to be able to be executed for drinking coffee in Turkey. The beginning, and I think you're executed if you don't drink, drink coffee, and smoking to in some of the European countries. I think this is one of the this is one of the accusations that's been thrown against all drugs. I think what drugs do essentially is to break up your patterns. And this can happen without drugs too. Of course, it happened in the blackout. It happened in depression. It happens in wars. Unfortunately, this is one of the attractions of wars. And most people lead lives of quiet desperation. That's what the Rose said others not so quiet. And if whenever you're thrown out of your routine, you can realize how miserable you've been. And you can start, you know, reconstructing the world to a certain extent. Of course, the danger is always to fall back. That's why during the blackout, I wasn't here. But I understand people were very friendly. There was lower crime rate, and it was considered a great experience by many people.
David Susskind 4:38
We take a question. Yes, ma'am.
Audience Question 4:40
I'd like to know what happens to you when you go outside of the village or outside of macdougal street. You're preaching peace and nonviolent activities. But what kind of harrassment do you face on the part of say local authorities or police in New York or in Podunk or
Ed Sanders 4:57
we we don't face very much harassment because like we're Our concern is not really to shock people we don't want to go up to somebody and just completely devastate their brain what we are presenting you know we do sing songs using language that has great strengths and force but we don't we're not instead of just like blitzing somebody so we have we have on a very measured and balanced program we put where we have elements of great social redemption and qualities of you know, really higher qualities and our shows if a person comes to our show only to hear a blip words then that he's the one is at fault. We're not
Tuli Kupferberg 5:34
there also people all over the country by now. Ready for to hear what we're seeing. And there's a peak there as a group in between, we'll look around at the performances to see how everyone else is reacting. And if it's okay, they'll start to enjoy it.
Audience Question 5:52
You're not bugged like someone like Leary might be or you know, by the police.
Tuli Kupferberg 5:57
Well not yet.
David Susskind 5:58
they love us sir. Do you have a question?
Audience Question 6:01
Why don't you guys come right out and say what you're trying to do which as far as I can guess is to is to educate kids in small fry about about things that perhaps the best ought not know about things like barbiturates and LSD and and oddball sexual practices, that it's going to take a world what seems to be a whole brainwashing thing and hear from you isn't, isn't that really what you're after?
Ed Sanders 6:29
And to brainwash people? You can't be you don't want to brainwash if you want to present people with logical alternatives to the behavior patterns. You know, you want to be able to you want to the The issue, of course, is freedom. We have the right to say what we're saying under any circumstance. But we have our primary concern is to say things that offer alternatives and offers actually what we're engaging in the bugs are engaging on block broad philosophical concern called the Zionist marijuana conspiracy, we, we want to we want to engage in spiritual exultation and this guy knows guy he's my Scoutmaster.
David Susskind 7:09
Do you object to what they're doing? Because you think they're violating every convention that you hold sacred and important?
Audience Question 7:17
I think they're not coming right out and saying what their intent is and I think I think their intent is a far reaching plan to get it the to get it the week still unformed minds of kiddies,
Ed Sanders 7:30
well we just want everybody to live in a big polyethylene bag full of Vaseline. That's all we want, if everybody will do that, and well,
Tuli Kupferberg 7:35
I think No, I've never denied that I'm a revolutionary I've been a revolutionary longer than I've been a fug because the society needs revolutionary changes. I'm also a pacifist so that makes it easy for me to get beat up quite so hard i don't think.
Audience Question 8:20
I was wondering about how the folks feel about contemporary folk music such as that song by Bobby Dylan.
Ed Sanders 8:26
Oh Bobby now we love Bobby is one of the greatest the greatest and he's he's our hero we we have a big like a Buddha altar and our dressing room and we we burn. Dex amphetamine hydrochloride crystals.
Audience Question 8:38
Yeah, but he isn't essentially salacious. It is music such as you
Ed Sanders 8:42
Audience Question 8:42
Ed Sanders 8:43
man. He just got to read it man. They were listened to just like a woman. Yes, it's all well conspiracy to exalt Allen Ginsberg. I don't know what it is
Tuli Kupferberg 8:51
I think Dylan is like probably the leading force in American music today. And he doesn't have to he's not in the areas where we're at maybe he's not concerned with the sexual revolution but in his own ways is much of a revolutionaries we're yes man. When the mode of the music changes the walls and city shake that's the line Plato and I a song Plato and I writing
Audience Question 9:19
Are you trying to shake down cities?
Tuli Kupferberg 9:21
David Susskind 9:23
Tuli Kupferberg 9:23
Wouldn't you like to do that?
Audience Question 9:24
Tuli Kupferberg 9:26
You want to build them higher.
Audience Question 9:28
I want to build great such as we have now.
Tuli Kupferberg 9:31
Just the walls is what I wanted to shake.
Ed Sanders 9:33
No, the point is Plato's Plato's point about changing the mode of the music is that that that sound that the reset the reception sound into the ears are very important. Vehicle for making change and singing is extremely important and and in classical times. In modern times. If you literally change the order of singing, the way of presenting words you can change people's minds, you can change philosophies, and if we can only change a one generation of people we can live in peace and harmony for 50 years without problem
Tuli Kupferberg 10:01
well, he was actually afraid of that kind of be honest, wasn't he can be honest, is always revolutionary
David Susskind 10:06
May this lady asked her question.
Audience Question 10:08
Thank you, David, I'm concerned about communication here. I think the fugs are very important part in the new generation that's growing up, I think a lot of people really feel for them. And if you walk along the east side, the west side, even Midtown, you're going to see a lot of people really appreciating and playing their music. So far, I haven't heard them on the radio at all. And I, I think they're very, very important, they should be heard. And I know there are a lot of legal problems involved with them. But there are many, many songs that don't have any so you know, words that you would call obscene or to corrupt the minds of our little youngsters that could be played, but they're jeopardized by this by this general ruling. And I think this is a fault of many of our radio stations, and our means of communication throughout here, New York in the international scene.
Tuli Kupferberg 10:59
It's not just a general ruling that applies to the parts. I don't recall how much time the socialist or independent candidates receive on a major TV network. The songs that are that aren't four letter songs are many of them are revolutionary songs. The songs opposing the war, for instance, are very definite terms. I think the station the network's
Ed Sanders 11:27
The Fugs have got the airplane situation Cool, man, like we were joining the R Peter Strauss for President movement and we're gonna get on him.
Audience Question 11:35
Well I don't think you really need it. You're doing very well with that the AirPlay scene you've been playing at the, at a certain theater in the village for a long, long time, and you're selling lots of records. And you're getting your point across that shows people are really interested in what you're what you're saying. And I don't think a lot of small time people are going to hold you down because this is going to progress a great deal in the next few decades.
Tuli Kupferberg 11:55
There is a kind of underground. way that ideas spread whether I don't think Karl Marx did right for the London Times, I think. But Tribune and the Herald Tribune? Yeah, the New York Herald Tribune. But, you know, if, if the ideas are right, they have a way of not automatically but they get around whether they're in the Daily News and not
Audience Question 12:26
The thing is the idea has happened and they form people are doing these things, and you're coming out and saying it, but you're saying in a way that a lot of people think a dirty and this is just a matter of our own semantic problem around here. Right? Who's gonna who's gonna say yeah blurp word is you know, dirty for instance, you can
Tuli Kupferberg 12:43
It's a personality problems, people who've been raised under a different system,
David Susskind 12:47
you have a question
Tuli Kupferberg 12:48
unhappy people I think
Audience Question 12:51
I realized that the recording field is very competitive, but yet there are a lot of groups like the Four Tops and four seasons and the temptations that have found great success without singing songs about marijuana, sex,
Ed Sanders 13:02
who wants success man we want to express ourselves and in modes and methods that we find true our own inner inner thing you know,
Audience Question 13:11
I'm just trying to get the point across if us you know, as musicians made a 40 RPM record would you know without talking about marijuana or sex? You think you'd find success as these other groups have? Or do you think that your success just like when you're in your hair and your shoes,
Ed Sanders 13:28
I think I think we have the musician ship musicianship whatever it is the ability to play music now to such an extent that we have you know, we can we have the potential being one of the best or the best rock folk sex protest spiritual group in United States
David Susskind 13:47
what is your we only have a minute left Ed, what is what is your message the message of the floods? What are you trying to say?
Ed Sanders 13:53
Status of America smoke fugs. I don't know our messages to everybody to be happy hang easy and dangle loose.
Tuli Kupferberg 14:04
Well my messages is, uh The joy bearing revolution that was Isaac Bibles message, and that's good enough for me. He was he died in a Siberian prison camp. I hope that doesn't happen to us. We got it. We still have another chance here for about
Ed Sanders 14:21
can't get it
David Susskind 14:22
can what what's your particular philosophy?
Ken Weaver 14:26
I send flowers.
David Susskind 14:29
That's good. You send flowers. Do you have any final word for us? Because the bugs don't get on television a great deal.
Ed Sanders 14:39
Well, if there's any Sunday school picnic, we first conserve or any any, any PTA meeting or any place where the thugs can present their views to America will be happy to be there.
David Susskind 14:53
I would advise the PTA groups to move with a certain deliberation in the invitation. Thanks for being with us. And stay tuned because there's more show
Break - Blank
Slate Card - Count down clock
David Susskind back in the studio with next guest David Duglas Duncan, Photo Journalist
What drives you to particular assignments? Why do you decide to photograph Picasso? Or why do you hop off to follow a particular war struggle somewhere? What's the incentive?
David Douglas Duncan 15:51
Your mix two different factors there, David? Actually, the Picasso coverage came as a result from my work in Afghanistan, where as a Life magazine photographer, and had been given a very strange stone carved around the time of Christ with image of a rooster and it and I said, that looks like a Picasso's work. I came back through cannes and the French Riviera gave it to Picasso mounted in a ring. And that led into a friendship that went on for the last forever. No, I hope I met him in 55. And it's still a very deep friendship.
David Susskind 16:27
You know, David it occurs to me, we're a visual medium, we describe you as one of the world's great photographers. Indeed you are, we should look at some of your stunning photographs. What Why don't we have a look at them and show them to the audio pleasure? Alright, the first one. What is this photograph?
David Douglas Duncan 16:43
Well I was a kid in Kansas City, Missouri and started off trying to do something more with a camera nearly 30 years ago, then just take snapshots around the house. So I took my old Graflex and shot a picture in an old folks home great grandmother, her great granddaughter and the child simply helping the old lady to thread a needle. Simple as that. But trying to tell a story my way photographically.
David Susskind 17:08
It's a beautiful picture.
David Douglas Duncan 17:10
This I made in 1937. Can you Imagine
David Susskind 17:12
let's have a look at the next one. What is this one going to be doing?
David Douglas Duncan 17:17
This is in Trinidad. As a kid from Missouri, I kept looking for faraway places to make pictures and talk Pan American Airways and descend me out along their route to do travel posters, and Omaka and an East Indian priest. Simple as that. But photographically the thing. It's amusing and that is the the contour of the ear of the priest and the contour the beak of the macaw. These are childhood pictures.
David Susskind 17:43
These were done as a child when
David Douglas Duncan 17:43
I was 18.
David Susskind 17:49
Alright, let's have a look at the next one
David Douglas Duncan 17:50
I had been making pictures for about two about a year in fact
David Susskind 17:54
What is this one
David Douglas Duncan 17:55
Mexico Patzcuaro at Ruskin Indian, using a butterfly net designed before Columbus came to the new world called a butterfly net they sent a seine out fish from the like simple ordinary travel pictures that a kid was making with his camera I look at them like a stranger now, but they put them in the beginning of this last book, to try to give a foundation for later work. And our world changed very quickly. We got into World War Two Of course, I was a Marine combat photographer. But prior to that, I went to South America for the American Museum of Natural History here in New York, big game fishing. And while on those expeditions, I made one shot I think we have on the monitor here
David Susskind 18:38
Let's have the next one.
David Douglas Duncan 18:40
It's a shot made off the San Lorenzo island of Peru. of guano birds. hundreds of 1000s Wanna bird guano birds? That's the fertilizer. Yes, it's harvested every four years. They come in the mountains in the foreground are there are there ness and hundreds of 1000s of birds were there? And I was downwind.
David Susskind 19:00
down of a couple of 100,000 birds. What about war? You've covered war a lot.
David Douglas Duncan 19:06
Yeah I was shooting at that time, I say for the American Museum here in New York and then off South America. Then when the work came, I became a Marine combat photographer and went to South Pacific. And I think there's a shot here that might interest you because in photography, it's hard to say that any single picture is unique, but this is unique. It's an act of treason to Japanese officer lieutenant who walked in the Marine Corps lines and Mindanao and said I want to surrender and I want to bomb my own headquarters. And the Marine colonel said fellow would fix you right up as a Japanese lieutenant in a way so a B 25 bomber in the background are more flights of the of the attack groups. Far out are the course air fighters and for three days. We hit his headquarters with everything we had in the book for
David Susskind 19:55
you were in the bomber.
David Douglas Duncan 19:56
We flew together nicely just before the a bomb was dropped. That's A naked act of treason. And it's never been photographed before or since to my nice class fuxion Restroom have given secret to the Soviet Union, but that's treason.
David Susskind 20:09
What's this next photograph?
David Douglas Duncan 20:12
It's funny, you know, it's not funny at all, actually, but I came out of WW II as a Marine, went into Palestine as a Marine as a Life magazine photographer and ran into more violence. That's right. That's an Arab one of three. Killed closer than you're sitting to me. No, David. It was a group of terrorists were raiding Godwin bank in Jaffa. I heard the bombs go off right into the attack group. Left up one street perfectly clear. Look up the next street. A guy with a machine gun in the backseat of North Chevy said ready to cut loose. Luckily for me, they thought I was Jewish. I don't khaki shirt, khaki pants. The driver just weigh me against the wall and they cut loose with the Brandon killed all three of them. violence violence has followed me all my life. It's very strange. I've sought beauty with men like Picasso. But there's been a deep involvement of violence. That's the whole the whole theme of Yankee Nomad, this book that
Montage of David Douglas Duncan's famous photographs
Famous Duncan combat photo of Japanese Lieutenant wanting to surrender
Duncan's photo of an Arab terrorist attack
David Susskind 21:08
Do You go where violence is, do you follow war? That's why you're involved a
David Douglas Duncan 21:12
It's a strange thing you know? On the 24th of June 1950, I'd locked up a story for life on Japanese culture, theater, art, religion. And the morning of the 25th the North Koreans came across the line as a war photographer again, I'd been a marine so I was I went back in
David Susskind 21:30
where you are, war happens? Where you
David Douglas Duncan 21:33
I'd like I'd like to argue with your astrologist runner, yeah. But this business of being I'm a I'm an Aquarian I'm January. And I think according to them, they were predicting that the Aquarians project their life to the future, says this is right now the stuff I've done all my life. Right now,
David Susskind 21:53
here's the question,
Audience Question 21:54
sir, what do you feel is the relationship between photography and painting as far as
David Douglas Duncan 22:00
I think one's an art and one's a craft? I'm a craftsman. I've argued this with a lot of my colleagues, the, I think the major photographers the world. And I, I oppose most of them. I think that a painter is an artist, a man like Picasso avant garde
David Susskind 22:18
what sort of man is Picasso David,
David Douglas Duncan 22:21
multiple faceted, for sure. Very simple, very sweet, generous, not temperamental, truly. Man that has changed our visual world for sure, since the turn of the century. He changed my visual world to show you some pictures later where I met his challenge when he said that two photographers are stuck with a lens. And I went along with us for four or five years. And then in Germany, three years ago, I found a special set of lenses and prisms with which I changed my world. I'll show them to you later. All right, but Picasso. You can't hang a description on him.
David Susskind 22:59
is He arrogant?
David Douglas Duncan 23:01
Never, never, never, never, never. You know. I went to see Picasso in 55 because of a fluke really, I'd come in from Afghanistan with this ring I mentioned to you. I called the house I said I had no introduction at all. My only contacted Ben Bob cap and Bob have been killed in Indo China the year before I went introduce myself and leave this ring. The girl who answered the phones had come up with the house went up to develop the door swung open, tremendous Iron Gate, sculpture, the big boxer dog on the front steps and a very lovely dark haired girl and black scarf. black slacks, black sandals, black sweater took me by the hand, not a word. In the front door, past the sculptor past opinions upstairs. There was a live nanny goat up there. Followed the telephone line into a sitting room, no furniture in the bathroom, Picasso's in the bathtub. First time ever met him.
David Susskind 24:00
You met him in the bathtub
David Douglas Duncan 24:02
like a king or like a child even better, complete innocence. So why not? You know, I made my first shot right there
David Susskind 24:09
because he had paintings of artists besides himself. Who does he favor?
David Douglas Duncan 24:13
Cesanne. Cezanne is Picasso's star. For sure.
David Susskind 24:20
Does he have any modern artists hanging in his home?
David Douglas Duncan 24:22
How modern do you mean?
David Susskind 24:24
our time now? Would he have Ben Shahn Would he have any
David Douglas Duncan 24:28
No, no, no,
David Susskind 24:29
none of that.
David Douglas Duncan 24:29
No, only some of them might be sent as gifts but they are tiny. No, a Matisse Modigliani Cezanne. Renoir. That's it
David Susskind 24:40
Does anyone else that you photographed compare in excitement and interest with Picasso?
David Douglas Duncan 24:45
David Susskind 24:45
he's all by himself?
David Douglas Duncan 24:46
He's alone. This man is alone.
David Susskind 24:49
Oh there's a there's a portrait you made
David Douglas Duncan 24:51
Here's a shot I made of Picasso. He's 83 years old standing in front of his home in Vauvenargues on the south coast of France
David Susskind 24:52
That's when he's 83.
David Douglas Duncan 24:59
Look at the biceps in the chest. That's right. He's like a Roman Emperor. Truly like a Roman emperor and pen down. He's in his jockey shorts. He's too funny for words really, because he's there's an innocence there. You know that. He said, why not? With the big Afghan Hound?
Unknown Speaker 25:16
He's got a rather young wife,
David Douglas Duncan 25:18
Jacqueline is in her late 30s. Yes.
David Susskind 25:21
Yes. There's a question.
Audience Question 25:22
Yes. What I'd like to know is your pictures must have been censored during any of the wars you photographed.
David Douglas Duncan 25:29
I've never been censored.
Audience Question 25:30
Oh, you've never been. You have never taken any of your pictures which might do harm to the American public?
David Douglas Duncan 25:38
I didn't catch your question. Excuse me
Audience Question 25:40
The government has never censored any of your pictures that might do harm to
David Douglas Duncan 25:45
I was a marine. I was photographing Marines at that time. I presume you're referring to World War Two. Yes. Or Korea. When I was in Korea, there was no censorship. And the kind of pictures I don't want to sound presumptuous. But the kind of pictures I was hoping to shoot and sometimes did shoot in Korea. We're in that final 10 meters. beyond which there is nobody standing up vertically like that. walking ahead, you're all crawling on your belly. And you hope you can crawl back. There's no censorship and there's lots of space around you. There's no competition.
David Susskind 26:20
Audience Question 26:20
Yes I understand that you took pictures of both World War Two and Korea was the most exciting adventure that you had during the wars in the plan to go to Vietnam to take pictures.
David Douglas Duncan 26:31
The most exciting
David Susskind 26:32
Yes, in those two wars. Did you have a particularly
David Douglas Duncan 26:35
No one can never measure excitement in terms of, of one event, because sometimes you're never really aware how close you come but I'll tell you one incident. I was with the baker company, first Marines going into seoul the recapture of seoul on the 24th of September 1950. And I'd read join an outfit that I've been with three weeks before I went and assault company and been a very difficult night. A lot of lots of action bitterly cold but very, very hot in a military sense. And I had rung me as foxhole, which about the element in hospitality. The next morning the attack broke off the North Korean attack broke off the perimeter The Hill had been held. And I there was no sound no gunfire except far, far, far, far, far away across the hills and no rain that night. And I stood up to stretch and I stretched. I thought I pulled the chest muscle. But I was looking down at near my feet at his communication men trying to raise battalion to get artillery to come in on the hills farther out. And he started to laugh. Bearded haggard had been laughing up there for a couple of days. He reached down between my feet. Handed me a machine dun bullet. Hit me right over the heart. Right there. It had come from the firing miles away. It was the absolute end of its flight. How close can you come and record it for souvenir for a couple of days and lost it. that was it
Audience Question 28:03
Do you plan to take pictures out to Vietnam conflict
David Susskind 28:05
Do you plan to go to Vietnam.
David Douglas Duncan 28:06
I was in Vietnam when the French were still there. And I've been very occupied since that time and haven't been back. I was there just before Dien Bien Phu fell.
David Susskind 28:16
we'll have a look at some more of David Duncan's great photographs after this brief message.
Duncan's photograph of Picasso
Cut to Break - Blank
Slate Card - Countdown
Back in Studio Susskind resumes interview with David Douglas Duncan
David Susskind 28:50
What is this photograph, David?
David Douglas Duncan 28:51
You've asked me about war pictures. This is the jacket shot of a book. I did call this as war story of Marines in Korea in 1950. Two Marines attacking a machine gun position. The lead Corporal was hit that passing over the body of a dead Guca dead North Korean. And if you pan to the left, on your camera, you find a younger marine coming in with a with a VAR automatic weapon. I was on a radio show about five weeks out in Kansas City, a late radio show where they were they telephone in? And a woman came on and said you know, mr. Duncan, you're rather special in our family said well, why is that? Oh, we have five copies of your book from Korea. I say you're very lucky. It's out of print. It says that's not it. The young boy. The second there is our nephew. And he was green now Lindsey, Candice and he was 18 at the time he was so worried about you because you're an old man at 34 photographing all that war 16 years ago. That's one of the he got home okay. Oh, no, no, he was killed. Yes. after that.
David Susskind 30:00
Let's see another picture. This is another picture of the war
David Douglas Duncan 30:03
You know there is an affinity attach with your as you get with your audiences sometimes even though it's hard to discuss some of these pictures.
David Susskind 30:10
this a famous picture
David Douglas Duncan 30:12
I mentioned this is Ike Fenton the guy sent me the machine gun bullet. This is like Fenton Captain Baker company fifth Marines surrounded by the North Koreans. At the moment he's told that he has no more replacements for his wounded or he's dead. He has no ammunition. No contact with no radio and no air support. There's a typhoon blowing in. Looks like a martyr on the cross. Or you know, Could you hold that a second? All right. I'll tell you something pretty incredible that night. Please. Picture back they stopped go right in on his eyes art. That's it. That night. We were in the foxhole. They broke the attack with hand grenades. And I told this to one of the most difficult days I think I've got some of the pictures that will last after this war is over. And I said, you know five years ago, I made an also made a shot that is going to last I made a picture of a Marine colonel kneeling beside the body of his son just been killed in Okinawa on Father's Day. He said a Marine Corps colonel, and a boy in Okinawa has my twin brother Mike. Why? What's happening? Professional Marines.
David Susskind 31:21
What is this photograph going to be?
David Douglas Duncan 31:25
This is a terrible picture. This man's crying That's right. His names. His name was Leonard Hayworth Corporal machine gunner. He was in that same attack the top of the hill when the gooks are coming up the hill is trying to knock it out. He was out of ammunition. He came back to Ike Fenton wanting more ammunition. There was no more he was told that he cracked up and I made this shot which renders the opening picture of Life magazine story of the holding of that hill No Name Ridge
David Susskind 31:54
He has just been told that there is no hope.
David Douglas Duncan 31:56
no hope at all.
David Susskind 31:58
So marines cry.
David Douglas Duncan 32:00
Yeah, it's exactly right. They cry I made it to the lead shot. I caught up with the attack company three weeks later, the time when the machine gun probably hit me over the heart. I found Leonard Hayward that night just dusk I showed him Life magazine with his lead shot. It's pretty embarrassing thing for me to see himself crying publishing the World Magazine. You know, a big old briskly jawed marine went up on tiptoe. This guy Leonard's about six feet three look like like Errol Flynn, a handsome guy from Deer path Indiana, can you imagine? And the marine said we all cry some time. And then it was dark. And the next morning he was shot between the eyes.
David Susskind 32:39
Oh god. there's a question for you.
Audience Question 32:43
Mr. Duncan, I'd like to know whether you crop as you shoot in other words, well whether you
David Douglas Duncan 32:48
It depends on the photograph. Most of these are flat out full negative, but sometimes because of the format of a magazine like life or look for the magazine you crop for the format of the magazine. These are 35 millimeter so as a fraction more top and bottom but
Audience Question 33:02
But it's essentially in other words you really deciding the frame
David Douglas Duncan 33:05
Oh, that's sure sure. I'll show you something later on. If we have time for it. Some shots were accident plays enormous role but the cropping is in your eye your editorializing as your shoot?
David Susskind 33:14
Duncan's book jacket photo called "This is War"
Famous Duncan Korean War photograph of US Marine Captain Francis "Ike" Fenton
Corporal machine-gunner Leonard Hayworth upon learning there were no more grenades, ammunition
Audience Question 33:15
I was wondering. Mr Susskind didn't mention anything about your education. Have you had any formal education in photography?
David Douglas Duncan 33:23
No. Just by by by education. I'm a marine zoologist, an archaeologist and a major in Spanish, but I'd learned I've studied and I've never started photography. No. Except by my mistakes.
David Susskind 33:36
Audience Question 33:38
I've read your books on Picasso looked at them. And I noticed that you worked with him with great detail I mean, there are many many shots of him his life and his work
David Douglas Duncan 33:48
you're speaking now about Pablo Picasso
Audience Question 33:50
Pablo Picasso in life of Picasso. Picasso's Picasso
David Douglas Duncan 33:54
Wait a minute there are two different problems are one is a detailed study of Picasso of the creative person. And one Picasso's Picasso was a book which tried to portray the life of the artist through his own paintings. Using the pictures as the the paintings, his paintings as the theme of his life,
Audience Question 34:11
right but even in Picasso's Picaso there were shots of his house,
David Douglas Duncan 34:14
you're correct. You have a good memory that 24 Page light off the book.
Audience Question 34:17
And I was wondering, were you worried in in your acquaintance with Picasso and your friendship with Picasso Were you worried about influencing him? In a negative way
David Douglas Duncan 34:28
Nobody influences Picasso I can tell you
Audience Question 34:29
David Douglas Duncan 34:30
David Susskind 34:32
Yes, sir. Your question?
Audience Question 34:33
I'd like to know what makes a pitcher Great. How can you look at a picture and tell whether it's good bad? The clarity of details or
David Douglas Duncan 34:41
how do you define greatness?
Audience Question 34:45
I really don't have
David Douglas Duncan 34:46
quality composition accident.
Audience Question 34:49
A great Poem to me is one that might evoke an emotion in me a unique emotion
David Susskind 34:55
don't these photograph evoke emotions. The Marine crying
Audience Question 35:00
Some like Batman lookin at a comic book, it's pictures evoke emotion
David Douglas Duncan 35:06
It depends upon your sensitivity, you know, and your experience. There's no way I could, I could tap your awareness. If you're not aware, it's impossible. I have to communicate with you through some common line of communication. We have to have a we have to have a common bond, either through your education through your experience, or through your family life. Or, in your dreams. You know
David Susskind 35:28
if you don't think some music is beautiful, or a piece of art is beautiful, what way do you think there would be convincing you? If you don't respond to it can't be talked into it.
Audience Question 35:37
You know, I don't have a spontaneity of emotion, maybe not. But the years back the Pythagoreans
David Douglas Duncan 35:45
I beg your pardon
Audience Question 35:47
Pythagoreans looked at. They actually Protagoras actually studied the mathematical interrelationships of sounds,
David Douglas Duncan 35:56
There is no mathematics here that's just playing getting closer again. Stay alive.
David Susskind 36:00
Unknown Speaker 36:01
Recently, Life magazine published a 30th anniversary memorial to photography have you do you think that photography and the camera because of the increase in population and complexities of media has lost its magic? Or do you Do you still consider the camera to be
David Douglas Duncan 36:17
No, look. You're speaking of life's anniversary issue of 30. 30th anniversary for life, which I didn't find too successful perfectly. And I was a live photographer I have no no bone to pick but as a professional photographer, I was disappointed because life we have this reputation upon the use of the picture essay, penetrating great depth some particular situation. Well, I except for the the avant garde photographic feats, which were published, they're using the the lenses inherent in the in the surface texture of a leaf, and I think they call it type of thermal thermographic photography, the after image by heat. I was pretty much bored. But the next week, did you see the John Bowman story on the leopard? Where the leopard Is attacking and started to kill the baboon it's the greatest nature Life photograph ever made, ever made.
David Susskind 37:17
We just see a few more photographs, David because they're sure they're stunning. What do you have created? We got on? Put on that next photograph, please.
David Douglas Duncan 37:25
Okay, here's an accident. I was in the streets of Seoul the 25th of September the day that McCarthy said this city is liberated except for the North Koreans up the streets. The family ran in toward the Marine who cut into the street. Under machine gunfire and bombing the background and a young girl of a South Korean family ran toward him. And as she passed him, she reached out and grabbed his right hand to thank him for liberating her part of the town which is in ruins. Of course. I didn't see that until 20 or 15 years later when I made this book. It's an accident. But to me it ties down the whole feeling of comradeship between the civilians of South Korea at that time and the Marines.
David Susskind 38:04
Yes. What about this next?
David Douglas Duncan 38:07
This is no accident. The First Marine Division coterie coming out if the Chinese entered the war 40 degrees below zero. I rejoined them and came out to the sea with them. This is America's Dunkirk just before Christmas 1950 This was so cool that the camera froze up and the film broken the camera every shot. Try to unload a camera your hands frozen when all my problems are nothing
David Susskind 38:33
We have one more. what is this David?
David Douglas Duncan 38:35
A Marine freezing to death I asked him what he wanted if you have any wish for Christmas they struggled the words and finally said give me a tomorrow he didn't make it
David Susskind 38:51
let me ask you the most memorable single photograph for you or event or personality that you
David Douglas Duncan 38:57
photograph photograph. I asked Picasso that one which is your your favorite painting he said which is my favorite finger
David Susskind 39:06
there is no answer.
David Douglas Duncan 39:07
There's no answer
David Susskind 39:08
I thank you David Douglas Duncan. Very interesting time again. Thank you
David Douglas Duncan 39:12
Thank you very much.
Famous Duncan photograph of young South Korean girl touching the hand of a US Soldier to thank him during an attack.
1950 photo of Korean War soldiers walking in a line in the snow -40 degree weather
A freezing marine in the Korean War hoping to see tomorrow
Fade out to break - blank
Susskind closes the show
David Susskind 39:38
That's our show for tonight and I want to thank you for being with us. If you are in New York City visiting or living here, please join us in the studio audience you can have seats by writing the David says gun show W ne W TV 205 East 67th Street, New York City. We'll be happy to comply with your request. Come and be a part of our audience. Part of our show. Thank you for being with us. And please join us again next week at the same time Tonight
Adress for show tickets "The David Susskind Show WNEW-TV 205 East 67th Street. New York NY 10021"
Description: *12/04/66 LIQUOR, SEX & DOPE: THE WORLD OF THE FUGS - PART I TULI KUPFERBERG, ED SANDERS, KEN WEAVER 11611 (copy at NY TV MUSEUM)
Keywords: Life Magazine
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