SUSSKIND INTRODUCES SHOW TOPIC. PARENTS OF HOMOSEXUALS.

David Susskind
Good evening. I'm David Susskind. How would you react if your son or daughter came home to you and said, Mother, Dad, I'm a homosexual, and I want you to meet my lover. Tonight, you will meet parents of homosexuals and lesbians will begin after this pause.

INTERVIEW BEGINS:

David Susskind
How do parents cope when a child announces that he or she is a homosexual? You're about to meet parents of homosexuals and lesbians, and they're going to tell you their experiences. Please meet them now. First. Amy Ashworth is executive director of the New York City Chapter of Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, two of her three sons are homosexual. Bob Benov is a former Marine who works in the construction industry. He has four sons, two of whom are gay, to protect their privacy. The next people you meet are sitting in the shadows and we use only first names. Gloria is the mother of a lesbian or homosexual daughter was married and has custody now of her two small children. Joe has three sons, the oldest is homosexual and has had psychological problems. The boy is now in a rehabilitation center. Arthur and his wife have a son and a daughter. Their daughter is a lesbian who came out to her parents about five years ago. Why is it that you three shadows at your request and you two are open and well lit.

Amy Ashworth
Because I feel very open about it. I feel I have nothing to hide. I have three sons to a gay, but they're wonderful human beings. And I also feel it's good from an educational point of view people who know me and respect us as a family, two sons happen to be gay. I think I have nothing to hide.

David Susskind
Alright, Arthur. Why are you in the shadows?

Arthur
Not because of me. I am not fearful of being recognized or being questioned. But out of respect for my daughter, the type of employment she has, would be very detrimental to her. If the war word came out, she has not come out to the world.

David Susskind
Joe, you're a homosexual parent. Why are you in the dark shadows?

Joe
Well, I have two other children. And they're not too happy about my being open or being involved in parents of gays. And especially the youngest one who was in high school, he would go through a pretty difficult time. Also, I'm recently married and I have three stepchildren whom I would have to deal with it also. And at this time, it's not doesn't seem appropriate to be open.

Bob Benov
David, I have to say that I think I'm open for the same reason I think every homosexual child should be open and out. Unfortunately, they have suffered tremendously from bigotry. And all of that is because people don't know what homosexuals are. They don't know that they know homosexuals and that they're good, honest people as they expect other people to be. And if all of them and all of us as parents were out in the open and stood up and said, these are our children and they're homosexual, and that's fine, because that there's nothing wrong with it. We wouldn't have the bigotry that we have because it'd be over 60

David Susskind
Were youThunderstruck to discover your child was homosexual?

Bob Benov
Oh, you better believe it. I was a bigot. I mean, I say to hide to overcome this bigotry. I was a bigot

David Susskind
Well, you're a Marine, you couldn't be bigoted.

Bob Benov
Well that's a good part of where it comes from David. I'm not only a Marine, but I have been selling in and to the construction industry all my life and that's certainly a macho industry where we flex our muscles and we say, you know all that sissy stuff does that but you know something? A lot of these big strong hulking guys, they're homosexual, because their sexual orientation has nothing to do with how they act and how they look. There are professional football players and boxers and hockey players who are homosexual. Some of them have come out and some haven't. I was a bigot. And I was thunderstruck. And yeah, it hurt.

David Susskind
How pain were you?

Gloria
Strangely enough, I kind of accepted my daughter's homosexual or lesbian ism much easier than I accepted the fact that she walked out on her husband and her children It was very strange i i could accept that I could understand what she was going through in there. But I found difficulty in the area,

David Susskind
did you become a homosexual? In the marriage?

Gloria
I believe so yes, she must have been all along, but realized it when she was married

David Susskind
Did you have any sense of her being

Gloria
None whatsoever she was, and she was and is the most feminine woman you ever want to meet? So it has nothing to do with how people look, you know, I have to go along with what you were saying about the football players. Because to look at her, you would never never imagine that she is

Bob Benov
I think there's something else that you said, David, that can't just get passed by you said that she become homosexual in the marriage. And that's not true. Because people don't just become homosexual, they are homosexual

Gloria
and they identity with it.

Bob Benov
They must decide act on what they feel or hide it. And that time comes

Amy Ashworth
The AMA and APA has agreed that someone's sexual orientation is determined before they go to school at age four.

David Susskind
I don't believe that.

Amy Ashworth
Well, but I find

Bob Benov
that's what the bulk of science agrees do.

David Susskind
You mean at four years of age your sons and daughters manifested lesbian or homosexual

Amy Ashworth
They didn't realize it.

David Susskind
Go ahead

Arthur
They don't have to. In other words, there are many as Bob said, homosexuals today, and lesbians and so on. Who, no one realize it because they don't act that way. You don't have to act that way. I in many cases, a lot of lesbians and homosexuals. Put a little bit of an act on it sort of a defiant method of saying, Hey, this is what I am, whether you like it or not. And so they act out a part, but in many cases is not evident at all.

Joe
You know, I am. Many of the men that I've talked to the gay men have said they've known all their lives, from as far back as they can remember. And so as my son said that, but what's interesting to me is that

David Susskind
Your son appeared to be normal to you. As a child,

Joe
no, well, yes, I would say he was normal.

Arthur
Let's not use the word normal. What is normal?

David Susskind
Did he seem to be a male? Did he she seemed to be female?

Joe
Well, in my in all honesty. Well, when you hear my story, you'll understand why I feel this way. But I suspect it for a very long time. But What surprises me is that you Gladis said that you could accept the lesbianism more quicker than you could divorce because when my son told me, he was gay, I preferred that he had kids, I was ready to die. That's the way I felt at the time.

Gloria
Well, I have quite a few friends who are gay. I didn't know any lesbian women, oddly enough, until I met my daughter as a lesbian. But I have met very many of them since and I find them to be very fine people. So I was very comfortable with homosexuality. It was just what the way people were. And it didn't bother me. You know, it really didn't bother me because I didn't judge them by, you know, while they were homosexuals, I judge them by the type of person they were. And the people that I know that are homosexual, very fine people

David Susskind
that you accepted without shock or astonishment.

Gloria
I didn't I'm not saying I didn't it. I accepted it without shock or astonishment. I mean, I would have preferred it otherwise. But I wasn't devastated. Let me put it that way. I wasn't devastated over it. I felt a sadness. So you know, I had wished it would be differently, primarily because of the the children. In her she had two children and

David Susskind
Does she have custody?

Gloria
She has she has custody of the children. Is there and she's a marvelous mother.

David Susskind
Is there a lesbian affair going on in the house?

Gloria
She has a friend and I don't know exactly. You know what the relationship is? Because they have separate rooms. That could be because of the children that they're being very discreet. They're very good friends. Yes, yes.

David Susskind
What is your story, Joe, that you said was unusual?

Joe
Well, I was convinced that let's see what happened was when my son was born. My first wife had had taken him over to her sister's house and the sister's daughter used to dress him as a girl and which was practically every day, up until he was about five years old, six years old, so that even when he went to school, he played with the girls because he was so used to being with girls. And it used to drive me crazy. And I kept that belief all my life. All of those years until I had went to the first parent of gays meeting, when I spoke to one woman, and she listened to my story, and she said, Did you ever think that perhaps he wanted to be dressed up as a girl. And I said, you know, that never occurred to me. And I went home, and I apologize to my wife, because she was accusing me and I was accusing her. And I had a doctor as a close friend. And he told me about the domineering mother and a rejecting father. So I was totally convinced of that theory. Until that day, my wife died now. And I was, I feel very good about the fact that I did apologize to her. Because there must be another thing being on the show, there must be, I would say, millions of people that feel the same way. Especially men, they're convinced that their wives did it.

Amy Ashworth
I think the same is true for mothers. You know, I heard 10 11 years ago that our older son was gay at that time. And you feel this tremendous guilt, which society built in you. It's a domineering mother. And I remember being awake for 24 hours and thinking, and and thinking, what if we do wrong, you have you have this feeling? Or you know, bigger, I don't think so because we discuss things and many times my husband's way is more reasonable, we do it that way. If my way is more reasonable, we'll do it my way. And if the boys, our sons no longer live at home, we listen to them. So everybody had sort of an equal voice. But it is that fact that a long time ago, and still for many parents, they've brought what we do wrong is to first reaction. And then I was very grateful. I did a lot of thinking in the next hours, 24 hours. And my background helped me I had worked as a volunteer for Headstart. And I taught religion for seven years as a volunteer. And I remember one time coming home to our sons for lunch. And as a you know, it's society that teaches discrimination at Headstart, all children of different color, like or dislike each other. Not because of who they are, but because they like the person, but society tells you whom to like and whom not to like. And religion. I found I taught the Catholic religion for seven years. And God never made an 11th commandment condoning homosexuality and Christ never said anything. So that, you know, that I could take over. I mean, that didn't bother me. But what I realized in my own my misery or whatever,

David Susskind
are you miserable?

Amy Ashworth
Yeah. I was.

David Susskind
Were you humiliated?

Amy Ashworth
No, well, I felt ashamed. And when I realized that all my feelings were really self centered, and, and self pitying for me, and then I thought, how awful. Think about your son, you know, what will his life be? And I'm always grateful for that insight. So later that we, we had dinner at a restaurant, and we discussed everything. I didn't feel comfortable to ask him about his homosexuality, we'd never discussed much sex at home. And so but what that evening proved to me at the end, that he was the same person. So the next day I called him and I said, I love you, but I need education. And I think that's the main part is that

David Susskind
how old was the son when he told you?

Amy Ashworth
That son was 18.

David Susskind
Okay, now you have a second son who is homosexual,

Amy Ashworth
the youngest, he was 14. He knew he was gay at that time

David Susskind
Did his brother teach him?

Amy Ashworth
No nobody teaches you to be gay. Neither does nobody teach you to be heterosexual. I think that is something within you.

David Susskind
You have a third son

Amy Ashworth
The middle son

David Susskind
who isn't

Amy Ashworth
yet the middle son...

David Susskind
He's the normal. Oh, that's a bad way.

Amy Ashworth
That's right. Yes. He is heterosexual.

David Susskind
Yes. We'll come right back to why you have two sons that are heterosexual and one son who has two sons that are gay and one son who is heterosexual. Yes, right after this cliffhanging moment.

INTERVIEW RETURNS:
David Susskind
Amy, you and Bob have something in common to some gay, two sons gay. Now, why did the third one skip the problem? it's not a problem.

Bob Benov
No, I'm not kidding. It is not a problem. The problem is that people have to recognize and learn what homosexuality is and then No, no, it's not a problem. That's what the problem is, is people don't know what homosexuality is. They think it's something not normal, as somebody said before it is normal. It's just another orientation, it's a different orientation. The affectional object of your of your affection is is of the same sex and really doesn't have that much to do with sex. You don't ever have to take part in a sexual act to be homosexual, just as you don't have to be take part in a sexual act, to be heterosexual, a Catholic priest does not take part in the sexual act. That doesn't mean he's not heterosexual. And it doesn't mean he's not homosexual. The the act of sex has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. who you're attracted to, is what affects your sexual sexual orientation. And the fact that it's not a problem is the fact that I know what homosexuality is, it was a problem for me before. When I first found out as you

David Susskind
Joe said, he preferred cancer for his child.

Bob Benov
No, I have to tell you, I know, I've said

Joe
this before he told me, this was the day before he told me, he said, What would be worse than than being gay? And I said, I rather see I've cancer than be gay. I mean, that's the way I felt. Now you say, I said, myself, I'm trying to be loving, trying to be a Christian father, I was very active in the church. I just blew my mind. I couldn't believe that this thing could be happening to me, or to my son. And when I went to see my parish priest, he said to me, you know, I don't think anybody knows what it is where it comes from. I think it's a great mystery. And, and, but he said he has to go, that he has to get out of the house because he's going to influence my other two boys.

Amy Ashworth
This is what is so sad, right? That's the misconception. People think it's like, you catch it like measles. And this isn't so people have in a parent's group in Westchester, I have a mother who comes she has identical twins. One is a lesbian, the other isn't. And we simply don't ask anymore, or how come it's one of the mysteries. We do know that 10% of the population was is and will be gay. And gay people don't have to recruit because they have heterosexual parent

David Susskind
Well if our population is roughly 2 million 240 million people. You're saying the 24 million? That's right.

Amy Ashworth
Yes, they are. Then imagine their parents, you know, who are connected aunts, uncles, if I was often thinking if all gay and gay related and lesbian related people would wear green vote for one day, you would be amazed.

David Susskind
My wife once commented that if the homosexuals and lesbians went on strike, yeah, that will bring the beauty business to a halt. Interior Decorating you couldn't get? That's that's a myth.

Joe
We've met policeman, priests

David Susskind
Homosexual priests?

Joe
Yes, Doctors, accountants.

Bob Benov
there is an organization, City Police Department have recognized organization by the New York City Police Department of homosexual policeman.

Amy Ashworth
It's 10% across the board

David Susskind
Amy, you'reboasting. You think it's abnormal?

Amy Ashworth
I don't think it's abnormal.

David Susskind
Would you like For more of the population to be homosexual.

Amy Ashworth
No, all I want is for people to understand our children. And I'm not talking and doing this for our children. I do it for all lesbians and gay people. Because I think it's interesting. You are a lesbian, or you are gay, and you can be fine. You have no job, the loneliness of a gay teenager who doesn't have a home, it's the only minority that doesn't have their parents behind them. Everybody has their parents, but if you're gay or lesbian, you can't count on your family. And then he

Bob Benov
Amy said something that I think it's very important. I think that almost all gay people when they're struggling with their homosexuality and acknowledging it, feel the loneliness feel like they are alone completely, that there isn't a weather like them. And I know that I as a parent of a homosexual when I first found out my wife and I thought we were the only couple on Long Island who had a homosexual child

Gloria
when my daughter I was just talking to her before I came on the show and She, she does quite a bit of talking to different groups, gay groups, and she says, The loneliest thing in the world is the children or the women that do not have their families backing them. And she said the fact that she has her family behind her makes the world of difference in how she feels about herself, and how she could, you know, present herself to other people and help other people in, in the struggle of homosexuality.

David Susskind
What do you think homosexuality is? How it happens? Why it happens? Do you have any idea?

Arthur
If anybody would know that, it would be a very simple thing? Also, you ask both Amy and Bob, how come? How do they explain the fact that two children are and one isn't, and so on? That question is usually asked by homophobic people because they feel it's catching. And it's either catching like a disease or the fact that you're surrounded, or you're in association with a gay person, therefore, they are going to convince you or sell you, homosexuality. And in their cases, it proves it very conclusively brought up by the same parents living in the same home. In Amy's case, they sandwich one in between the royal males, he escaped, and the other two are. And the strangest thing, which he didn't tell you was is that the one son, even though already, the first one had already come out, he was afraid to come out after he had been the first one had been accepted, because he felt it would be too much of a blow now.

Amy Ashworth
A younger son knew he was gay, when the oldest he was 40. And that he couldn't accept himself, he found it very hard.

David Susskind
And he knew his older brother was homosexual as old. well why couldn't he accept it because you accepted the older brother

Amy Ashworth
Well because everybody has their own dream in life. And maybe that wasn't his dream. And four years later, he wrote us a letter and said, I refuse to be labeled as by society. But this is what I am. And it took me a while. And then I wrote him back. And I said, what hurts me the most is that we weren't there to help you, your loneliness. And he knew we were working for parents of gays

Bob Benov
I'll give you a better example of that. I have spoken openly and often about my son Jonathan being gay, and never spoke about my other son. And as a matter of fact, before I came on this program, when we were talking about it, that I finally spoke to my second son, because he was not out to his grandparents. He was out to everybody else

David Susskind
He declaired to come to come out

Bob Benov
To come out is to come out of the closet

David Susskind
come out of the grandparents didn't know he was homosexual

Bob Benov
still do not know still go. And I spoke to him. And I said, you know, I'm going to be on this program. And I really would like to talk about both of my sons, not just one. I said, you know, you're homosexual. I know you're homosexual. And you declare it, I said, why shouldn't you be out to your grandparents? Why shouldn't you? I think your brother is there. It can only make them think that you feel something is wrong about being homosexual. I said, Do you have a problem with your homosexuality? And he said, No, not at all? You know, I don't? I said, Well, then why not? declare to them? Let them know, honestly, all of you, and

David Susskind
why are you so proud of it? I mean,

Bob Benov
I'm not proud of the fact that they are homosexual

David Susskind
you want to educate,

Bob Benov
I'm proud that they are homosexual, acknowledge it, know what they are, and acknowledge it and are free about it. And I want the world to know what homosexuality is so that they won't be prejudiced against my children and others.

Amy Ashworth
They congtribute to society and we just want them to be looked upon as contributing people to society

Bob Benov
I want my son to be able to walk down the street with their mate holding hands as I walk on my wife. You know what I want? My son's to be able to have an apartment where they like, no matter who their maid is, just as I can have an apartment where I like, as long as I can pay the rent. And I want my children to be able to have any job that they're qualified for, no matter what their orientation is, just as I can get any job that I'm qualified for it.

David Susskind
I'm with you all the way except walking down the street. No, I don't walk hand in hand with that. I save that for private time. walking

Bob Benov
hand in hand holding hands only. Rarely,

David Susskind
risk is not the issue.

Gloria
The issue is your perception

Bob Benov
your perception, your perception of the people holding the

David Susskind
physical manifestations of a homosexual love affair.

Bob Benov
This has nothing to do with a love affair. And I walk down the street sometimes I hold Amy's hand if I'm working with friends is that a love affair? We have never had a love affair, I must declare that to everyone

David Susskind
Alright I withdraw,

Amy Ashworth
I want to to tell you something that our oldest son has been together with somebody for 13 years. And the beginning, he stayed with us for six months, that were the most wonderful months in our life, why he and Dick and I have respect for each other. We learn from each other. And if I family stays with me longer than a week, I go a little insanity,

David Susskind
Did you see any physical aspects of their love. Did they kiss? Did that bother you?

Amy Ashworth
No, that doesn't bother me. And they are like, you know, you don't feel like hand in hand, walking on the street. In the beginning, they weren't very overly affectionate. You know, and now it doesn't bother me if they are because what is wrong? When there was wealth, we seem to give medals to people because they kill so well.

David Susskind
You want to give a medals to two men walking down the street? I just think it's offensive to its general norm of behavior but

Amy Ashworth
Is it acceptable to be left handed, you know, red hair. I agree with you, I agree with you. I don't like people

David Susskind
You have your own standards of behavior.

Bob Benov
now what's, what's an issue is what you're considering a normal standard, you're having a double standard, you think it's perfectly normal for a man or woman to walk down the street and hold hands, but not normal for two men or two women. And that's really what's wrong. There's nothing offensive with holding hands. If you're talking about sexual activity. I think that's offensive, in public in any case, or excess of display of emotion, I think is offensive, no matter what the sex is of the people involved. That's something that belongs in private what people's sex is for people in private, not in public. But to display affection by holding hands, I think is ridiculous to say it's offensive, that what's offensive is to think that that's offensive.

Arthur
Just just thrown a little humorous note, I live in the village. And so gay people are bound down there. We have quite a few. And they tell a little story of this. Gay a man and his lover. We're walking down the street and in front of them. There was a heterosexual couple and they were arguing something fierce. So Joe talk turned to Bob. And he said, Bob, See, I told you those mixed marriages, they never work.

David Susskind
We'll be right back after a pause.

INTERVIEW RETURNS:

David Susskind
Amy I want to be clear that I did not mean that heterosexual manifestations on the street, kissing holy hands and so forth. Agreements are acceptable. I don't want to see that either.

Amy Ashworth
I agree with you. That but I want to allow all our education, you know, of all of us here is coming from parents of case, we go to meetings for parents and friends. Group therapy

David Susskind
Group Therapy. But the presumption is that there's something wrong?

Amy Ashworth
No!

Arthur
Let me jump in on that. It's not that something is wrong. I remember the first meeting I went to with my wife. And the reason we went, of course, is that our daughter, we finally found out that our daughter was a lesbian.

David Susskind
Now we you right at the beginning of the knowledge, did you go to group therapy?

Arthur
No, not all. Probably about a week or two later, one of the one that happened? Well, first of all, what happened when that happened, when that happened, I really did not go into shock. I suspected that my daughter was a lesbian, not for any of the outward manifestations, but she spent most of her time with girls. Not that she didn't date when she was going to college. In fact, she almost got married, and my wife and I liked the fellow very much, and my wife, you know, women like to get their daughters married off fast. Their sons a different take time with them. And my wife one day when my daughter was home from school, she said, Well, what are you when are we going to get married? And Ronnie said, I don't know. And finally, it worked out that it broke up. And so my wife felt badly and she pressed the point. And she said, You just don't understand mother and then laid there. But then when she finally came out, I said I had suspected and the first thing that hit me.

David Susskind
Why did she come out at that point

Arthur
Very strangely. In our group of friends who have sons and daughters, the big discussion always was is your daughter married is your son married and so on? And one of our friends very good friends. The wife said to my wife, you know, maybe your daughter is a lesbian. Well, my wife didn't talk to had a woman for a month. And she was very angry, and she carried on. And then the thing CeCe said to me, do you think that that our daughter is a lesbian? And I said, really? I don't know. And to me, it doesn't matter. She said, Come on, tell me. You know, I said, No, I don't know. But finally, my wife had to get it out. So she called up my daughter. And she said, So and so mentioned the fact that she thinks you're a lesbian. So she said, Mother, are you asking me? And so my daughter said, Yes, I'm asking you. So my daughter said, I'd rather not talk about on the phone, I'll be home tomorrow. So she came home. And we sat down, and we discussed it. And the whole thing came out, my wife cried, I didn't cry. But I felt badly. And the reason I felt badly was not one of shock. But what she might face in life due to the fact that society will think she's not normal society, will abuse her will call her names, and so on, she might lose her job, and that life would be very difficult for her. And then after a while, I got angry at society. And I said, this is ridiculous. She hasn't changed. I love her as much as I did before. She's the same sweet girl, and so on. Well, anyway, that was the beginning. And it worked out in a rather good way. About three weeks later, she called us and she suggested that we call a particular woman shall I use jeans name? Sure, yeah. Jean Manford, who about 11 years ago, formed, the first group of therapists of lesbian therapy was not therapy. She was normal. Suppose a normal woman, but you happen to be a school teacher, she had no professional background, but she had a,

David Susskind
you don't have to be that defensive. I use the wrong word. Group, support, mutual support.

Arthur
Exactly. That's what it was. And it is group therapy. But she was not a therapist. In fact, she was a very shy, you know, woman who didn't make much noise. If you looked at her, she's sweet. She's gentle, and you wouldn't think she would you go to the group. We went to the group, you went to the group, we found there were a lot of people there in pain. They came there because they needed bolstering. They they hurt and they didn't know why they hurt very many different reactions. Some parents hated their children. And they thought their children had done the worst thing in the world. How could they do this to math that they've been such good parents? Others, as Amy said, felt terribly guilty. I mean, I must have done something wrong. Last week, child put in the done, it's been around

David Susskind
how old was your daughter when you just

Arthur
She actually was 32 years old. You didn't know till I set back the well, because she was away at school. She was here. She was there. She hadn't been home for a long time. And she had been dating everything was fine. I know a lot of girls and fellas don't get married until the latter age. If we've asked

David Susskind
her dates. We're probably women.

Arthur
We didn't know she dated at all. Because when we asked that question, we never got a

David Susskind
Have you ever met her lovers?

Arthur
Yes, I have. And that's very interesting. Prior to the fact kind of my daughter came out, she was solid at times. She was unhappy, she made us unhappy and so on, when it finally came out. And we started to live together and in fact that we understood each other, and we met her lover. At that point, we met her lover. At that point, we accepted her lover. At that point, we then went with her and her lover to their affairs and to their friends. We had them to our house

David Susskind
author as a male. Yeah. And you your wife is did you? Did you visualize your daughter? In a love of physical relation?

Arthur
no

Amy Ashworth
I don't visualize how my parents did it or my aunts or my brothers.

David Susskind
I didn't think My parents, my grandparents did.

Bob Benov
I don't visualize how my heterosexual sons what they do in bed, or what they do with them, right? And my oldest son who is heterosexual is living with whom I call my daughter in law for 12 years. And what they do in their bedroom is their business and what my other sons do when their bedroom is their business, and it's I don't I don't think what you do in your bedroom is my business and I have no right to visualize and shouldn't visualize what you're doing.

Amy Ashworth
That's what gay profit and homosexual homosexual is. The emphasis on sex. But being gay is a relationship. It's going to the movies it sharing your thoughts. It's sharing your hobbies It is working to Catherine. That's what it is a whole relationship. And just as you know, married people work at relationships, gay and lesbians do.

Arthur
David may I hazard a guess

David Susskind
It's Joe's turm

Joe
good. You know. I like to get back to showing affection in public. Do you know when I found out my son was gay, I was very active in the church. And I felt that I was a good father. That I was a loving father. You know, when he told me he was gay, I couldn't put my arms around. And it took me about two years to find out about parent of gays. And I set the bar the first day I said, you know, I said, I can't love my son. The way I love my other two sons. I said, it's killing me. I says the guilt of not being able to do that is killing me What the hell's the matter with me? And he said, you love your son. It's just that he's not doing what you think he should be doing. He's not like your other two sons who's doing what you want them to do. So it took a while. It took a lot of talking a lot of meeting a lot of people of parent of gays. And today, I can put my arms around today I know I love parent of gays has given me that not religion.

David Susskind
What was the key the trigger? The made you go from? I can't touch you, because you're so soiled in my mind, to acceptance and loving,

Joe
total ignorance, ignorance from society and religion. There's one thing that that that always bugs me is that religion is supposed to comfort people. And you you notice this, there are religious people who are in favor of gay rights who are understanding?

David Susskind
Very few,

Joe
but very few. And you wonder, as a Christian, I say, where is the love of Christ? If if, if Jesus was able to embrace the lepers, who could be considered a great ally, as much as a leoper today, as a homosexual, who else besides them did despised by everyone, when you speak of a of a younger adolescent, they've even taken God away from him, because he's an abomination in his eyes. So just imagine the pain that's out there. And it's that understanding that when I realized the pain that he went through alone, pain and confusion has said, it makes me want to cry now. That religion, and society has done this as a Roman Catholic. I love my god, I love Jesus. But I'm confused about the church, to church a stand on it. Where's the reality?

David Susskind
I think the church is confused about the church, about birth control about abortion, about women will come right back. After this pause.

INTERVIEW RETURNS:

David Susskind
Gloria, you wanted to say something.

Gloria
I wanted to respond to Joe when he said where is the church? Well, Joe, we are the church. And we are we have to be instrumental in bringing about these changes within the church. The church is in a period of limbo that, you know, they they don't know where this homosexuality is going to, to go. But it's very similar to what happened when Catholics who sung suddenly becoming divorced and there were hundreds and hundreds of Catholic men and women who were divorced and yet were living good Catholic lives and wanted to raise their children as Catholics. And they they brought pressure to bear where the change had come about.

David Susskind
The church is noticeably intolerant of homosexuals. And there's such urgent other problems that I don't think that one has immediate priority. Why don't we get to your own lives? You've come to terms with your children. Does that include their being able to bring their lovers to the house.

Gloria
Oh, yes. My daughter brings her friend to my house. She comes and spends weekends with us. They live out of state with my two grandchildren. So she is welcome at my home as my daughter is welcome at my home.

David Susskind
You reach the point where you can tell friends about your job.

Amy Ashworth
Yes, I do better. We have a gay phone in the house. And when the plumber comes and he goes to the phone to use it as a no that's my gay phone. And later we have wonderful

Bob Benov
hotline for parents of gays in her home.

David Susskind
Oh, you have a hotline. You work for the parents of gays and lesbians. That's correct. What do you call it? I'm about to kill my child. What do

Amy Ashworth
you know we get calls when Do you have your meetings? We have calls? Do you have a group, you know where we are. We have calls of people who feel troubled, and wonderful. People who who call, and then we have people who visit them, and then they come to the parents group, and then they feel so much better. Because when you go to the parents group, you're no longer alone. The stereotypes fall down, we have gay and lesbian speakers who come from every profession, all telling the same story, like our children did, that they felt different at a certain age. And they really have one choice, being honest about themselves, their own true nature of staying in the closet.

Arthur
David, can I answer a question you asked before? Do we do I do my wife and I include our daughter in with group affairs? In other words, my daughter brings her lover when she's invited to weddings, and they come as a couple to bar mitzvahs. They come as a couple

David Susskind
is that a little bit awkward?

Arthur
No, not at all.

David Susskind
Weddings above the

Bob Benov
that happens in my family.

Arthur
The reason it's not awkward, is because people are relay us do we tell relations? We don't go around? Listen, my daughter is a lesbian. But they ask questions after that, you know, we noticed that your daughter comes with the same girl all the time, and so on and so forth. And they come as a couple he said, Yes. Did they live together? Yes. Then they don't know what to ask. And they don't know what to say they're embarrassed. You never say they never asked? Is she a lesbian? They don't have to ask. And they they've known my daughter all her life. They've loved her all her life. And at this point, they say, hey, it's it seems like a very normal thing. They we don't say, Hey, your daughter or son should do that. And I don't say that. We would like that.

David Susskind
Did you ever taken on some Manish a characteristic

Arthur
not at all

David Susskind
dressing differently?

Arthur
Not at all. She's never changed the way she dressed. She's always dressed the same. And now the question is always asked in a relationship like that, whether it's two males or two females, one is dominance. And one is the macho one who other acts the part of the woman and vice versa. One is a butch and the other one that's not so they have the same problems that any normal married couple

Bob Benov
It's two people relating together is what it is.

Arthur
And another thing I must raise this point before one is the man and one is No.

Bob Benov
Two people, two people,

David Susskind
every couple I have known heterosexual and certainly homosexual. One is the leader. One is the manage one and the other is the female.

Bob Benov
I don't know how to people.

David Susskind
I just know

Amy Ashworth
Look at marriage. It's more shared these days. It really is where you listen to the one and and the

David Susskind
I'm not talking about not listening or listening. Not talking about one tends to say that well, that's just fell down. You pick it up. I mean, one is stronger, stronger.

Joe
We'll accept that. But that's in every relationship.

Bob Benov
Male and female?

David Susskind
Yeah. Well, what do you quibble? You say stronger.

Arthur
Anyway, I quibble. David, I must bring this out. Just past this. September, my wife and I celebrated our 45th anniversary. Ah, thank you. And I want a few I've lost a few and a few got rained out. In other ways. It's not a case that you always win or you always lose if you're doing your marriage never last 45 years. If it's a good relationship, it will last because life does not go on and an even plane and a one is always dominant on one is always submissive at some point, that thing has to blow out. Because you cannot destroy

David Susskind
You are making an immediate equation between a heterosexual marriage and a homosexual one

Arthur
So yeah, yes, I definitely am. Immediately, because let me say another thing as I hasn't there is more sex. That is practice and a heterosexual marriage than in a homosexual marriage. Because in many cases, it's in the homosexual groupings and follow what you will. It's a case of love. It's a case of companionship, it's a case of need, and if people are married, and the only, I mean, heterosexual marriage, and I only need is sex that matters as the last either it's human relationship and

Bob Benov
human relationships. That's people relating to each other on a daily basis, even talking about the family reaction. My reaction was a little bit different than author's. My son Jonathan lives in Atlanta, and he's been living with the same person for seven years now. And they have been invited to the family bar mitzvahs and they always come. They traveled from Atlanta and come up to New York for the bar mitzvah. If there's a wedding, they will be invited. And they attend together. And they're introduced not as you know, two people together. They're introduced as a couple. That's Jonathan and his mate, Lewis. That's who it is. And the family accepts it. My entire family knows it, and they accept it. And no, and there's,

David Susskind
you suggest, uniformly you suggest that your children, homosexual, lesbian children have single love relationships. And there is a body of literature that suggests that homosexuals tend to be promiscuous.

Gloria
That seems to be the image that they have no

David Susskind
There is scientific data about that, you know?

Bob Benov
Everything could be named scientific data

Amy Ashworth
10% of the population of the gay population is promiscuous. 90% of the heterosexual

David Susskind
You just made that up?

Amy Ashworth
No, I think it is

Amy Ashworth


Bob Benov
50% of marriages dissolve. Yeah. And I would suggest that most of those two solutions require some promiscuity, or

David Susskind
tactic you veered away from an answer to an equivocation. I'm saying that there is a literature that suggests that homosexuals for good and sufficient reasons society given them a hard time, parents refusing to accept it, and so forth, tend to be promiscuous, have multiple affairs simultaneously.

Arthur
I'm a mathmatician, among amongst other things, or when I went through school, and so I took statistics both in the economics department and in the math department. And one of my professors gave a definition. And he said that statistics is the same as a bikini bathing suit. What it reveals is very interesting, but what it hides is vital. And otherwise, I'll take any set of figures and I will prove anything you want out of the same set of figures by

David Susskind
If your children. Live promiscuously with their males and with the women where it's alleged

Bob Benov
No, definitely not. none of my children have been promiscuous, not heterosexuals, and not the homosexuals. That is not to say that all of my children have lasting one on one relationships continuously. Two of my sons have lasting long term relationships. Two of them have not. And other two, one is heterosexual and homosexual. And it happens to be in both cases. So I think that the what you cited before as the statistic is, again, one of the misinterpreted things that people accept, just because they're accepting

David Susskind
that it's valid, but your lucky experience will come right back to you, Joe, after we pause.

INTERVIEW RETURNS:

David Susskind
Alright, Joe, you wanted to say something?

Joe
Well, the gay community as well as the homosexual community, there's no good or no better or worse than each other. There are people who are promiscuous and heterosexual. As well as homosexual. People forget, they say there's 2000 people in this city alone that have AIDS. There's 20 million people that have VD herpes in this country. They're not talking about locking them up. And it's far more contagious than AIDS. AIDS is very difficult to get when you talk to the experts,

David Susskind
but AIDS is fatal. But sure, therefore, it is.

Joe
There are some deaths Related to to VD herpes also,

Amy Ashworth
but in general, you know what I would like to say that any minority counterpart to make a mistake when the minority makes a mistake, it makes headlines. And you know, the majority can make mistakes, but that's passed over

David Susskind
It's not majority. It is a ravaging disease. It's terminal talking.

Amy Ashworth
Oh I wasn't talking about AIDS

David Susskind
AIDS is in the headlines, eight is abroad in the land and the world. Now, are you troubled as the parents of homosexual?

Arthur
Absolutely.

David Susskind
You are?

Arthur
Well, not not, not if I have not if you have a child who's had a long term relationship. We're talking about promiscuous relationship there. You definitely well be fearful,

Joe
but it doesn't all it takes you could take one time to get AIDS. It doesn't take promiscuisness. To your point We were afraid I'm afriad of my other two sons getting venereal disease. It's a frightening thing. It's something that I worry about. I can't deny that. But I hope that he uses good sense good judgment. We know that. I mean, I believe that AIDS does come from promiscuous We don't condone promiscuity. And we don't condone the sex with children, as so many people seem to think that that homosexuals are related to when the statistics are far greater than heterosexual

David Susskind
You know for a fact from your children that they are taking whatever precautions are possible in their homosexual relationships.

Bob Benov
I certainly do. As a matter of fact, one of my sons is now attending a, an intensive seminar on AIDS education, to help disseminate information throughout the community. And I have to tell you, I worry about AIDS not only with my homosexual dream with my heterosexual child, also who is not in a long term relationship. Unfortunately, I think we are facing a ravaging epidemic of the terrible disease that hopefully they will find something for. But in the meantime, that's going to be in the general population there already has spread to the general population.

David Susskind
Well, the one thing we know about that disease is that it is spread by the exchange of bodily fluids, intimate contact, certainly, there is no greater exchange of bodily fluids, Heterosexuals are exchanging quite a lot of ejaculation. So to with the homosexual relationship, there's an awful lot of bodily bodily fluids there. There are precautions to be taken, it reduces amount of pleasure, I suppose condoms or something.

Amy Ashworth
But that's what the gay community suggests, I'm part of this teaching. I mean, the gay community is, for so far, the only one who was over educating, they have done tremendous things, from workshops from reaching out to people who have AIDS, and they've taken the lead, and I admire what they're doing. I think the only thing we as parents can do is send money for funding to the Crqne Organization to any kind of organization who is doing research.

David Susskind
I'm curious, you're all unanimous in the acceptance of the situations in your homes and your children? Is that a result of the group therapy? Oh, you don't like that? Is that a result of the support group experience you've had? Or did you finally feel so tortured by your child's loneliness and isolation that you came around?

Gloria
When I first learned that my daughter was a lesbian, I wasn't involved with any group, and I didn't seek any group. I, you know, I just didn't have the need for it. My husband was alive at the time. And we had a good relationship. And we kind of talked it out between ourselves and we were accepting of the situation. But when my husband died, I felt the need to be in community with people who had children who were gay, because I needed to talk about these things with other people. And at that point is when I got in touch with the people from families in response, which was a group that was primarily concerned with educating families of homosexuals and lesbians, but also

David Susskind
Gloria, I'm confused. Did you come to that point? Because you wanted some help? I can't go on loving my child with

Gloria
No, I never had any problems with loving my daughter, I loved her

David Susskind
What did you need the group for

Gloria
because I wanted to help bring about some changes, changes in the church changes in the laws,

Joe
you know, when you speak of affection in public. I was offended when I saw men kiss or hold hands. But at the meetings when I see that, after a time, it didn't bother me anymore. And you see to me, Well, if I see two men, my kissor hold

David Susskind
At a meeting?

Joe
No a greeting

Bob Benov
as I kissed Amy, when she walked,

Joe
it's not everyone. She was a friend. It's not everyone. It's not all the time, but it does happen. It doesn't offend me anymore.

Amy Ashworth
When people come in

David Susskind
kiss on the lips. No,

Joe
sometimes once in a while, I guess.

Amy Ashworth
When we come at meetings when we come in, I mean, this is almost family, you know, and so we greet each other. And so yeah, no, absolutely. No, no, that doesn't have that. Really

Joe
no. Fathers and sons, I've seen kiss uncles. Now I will have made this happen.

Arthur
David. My father kissed me. On the lips. I kissed my son on the lips. My father kissed his partner on the lips. None of us are homosexuals. It's a European tradition, tradition that you kiss and it has no sexual conotation. whatsoever. But to go further, as far as our meetings and why we come and why we don't come, Amy and Bob, I've only been going about five years since I found out they've been going longer. And at the meetings, sometimes were questioned. Well, now that you've solved your problem, and you're sort of asking the same question, now that you've solved your problem, and you're very comfortable, why do you continue coming to these meetings, you don't need it. It's true. We personally don't need it. But we do learn something new every time we come to a meeting. And there are no parents that come in. And also, we give back what we've got the solace and the comfort and the help and the education that we got anyway. And now,

David Susskind
I want to say something I'm a little nervous about it. I have known a lot of homosexuals. And they are splendid, interesting, gifted, intelligent people. But I am found that in a crunch, I'm talking about males in a crunch a kind of a terrible bitchiness comes up a kind of a malevolent thing that you just would never, ever otherwise encountered.

Bob Benov
Sounds like you know a lot of bitchy people I do I mean, that's what it is. It has nothing to do with the sexuality. That's

Amy Ashworth
If you have your parents against you, your religion against you, society gets you, everybody against you.

David Susskind
You have every right to be bitchy

Amy Ashworth
You build protection. I have days I built myself protection and before she can hurt me our hurt.

Bob Benov
I would like to answer one thing that you said to her that why you go to the organization. Okay, I went because I thought a homosexual was a terrible, degraded, terrible human being. And I knew that my son was not what I thought a homosexual was I knew my son. And I knew that I had to learn that someplace something was wrong. And because my son wasn't what I thought a homosexual was, when I heard about that group. I went to learn what a homosexual was.

David Susskind
Okay. We'll be right back

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END REEL