Historic Films Stock Footage Archive: NT-3124

00:01:31 0.13	Title Slate: The Eleventh Hour #124, Nussbaum, Rec: 2/2/89
00:01:34 3.21	Blank
00:02:04 33.9	Funding for the Eleventh Hour announced and overlay on the Eleventh Hour graphic.
00:02:13 42.93	The Eleventh Hour graphic and show opener.
00:02:42 71.28	Footage of Hedda Nussbaum, child caretaker, testifying in court about the death of the six year old child she lived with.
00:03:22 111.82	Host Robert Lipsyte in the studio welcomes viewers to The Eleventh Hour and introduces himself. He talks about the topic of today's program, the role Hedda Nussbaum played in the death of the child she lived with. The question, was she a victim herself or an accomplice is the topic of the show.
00:03:45 134.36	In the studio with him and sitting on the sofa, Host Lipsyte introduces his guests, Phyllis B. Frank, President of the New York State Coalition against Domestic Violence and a Counselor for battered women and of men who batter; and Susan Brownmiller, Author of the Classic Study of Rape Against our Will and new novel Waverly Place.
00:03:46 135.82	INTERVIEW: Robert Lipsyte: manslaughter one but the other verdict that silent verdict have Hedda Nussbaum Phyllis, what should have Hedda Nussbaum have gotten? Phyllis B. Frank Well, I think that Hedda Nussbaum should be exonerated. I think it has come out the way it should, though I would have preferred to see a more stringent sentence or verdict for Joel Steinberg, I see Hedda Nussbaum as someone who was beaten into submission, who was terrorized for a significant period of time, and who in fact, behaved in a way that is commensurate with the treatment that had befall in her. Robert Lipsyte Susan, Susan Brownmiller while agreeing with Phyllis, I would have if I had been a member of the jury voted to convict Joel Steinberg on murder two the most serious charge he was up for. I strongly disagree with Phyllis, however, and feel that Hedda Nussbaum should have been brought up on charges herself. And if I had been the district attorney or if the district attorney had consulted me, I would have said that she should have been brought up on the charge of reckless endangerment of the welfare of a child, at the least at the least I would have preferred a public airing in a court of law on her culpability. Robert Lipsyte But there's no question in your mind that she was certainly culpable that she was an accomplice to this murder. Susan Brownmiller Well, Judge Rothwax himself instructed the jury to view her testimony is that if an accomplice, yes, it is my opinion, I feel and I have no problems. With this distinction. I feel that she was indeed a victim of Joel Steinberg but I feel she was also responsible for abdicating all all of her personal will, within the relationship with Steinberg for 12 years. And I certainly think that she is morally culpable for the death of Lisa Steinberg. Robert Lipsyte The lines are certainly drawn on that. Do you? There must have been something though, that that drew you to this case. I mean, more than just it being a couple of blocks away from your home. Somehow, somehow this this death struck New York in a very particular kind of a way. Was it the death of Lisa or was it the relationship between Joel and Hedda? What do you think it was that that made us so interested in? Phyllis B. Frank I think one piece is that this is an upper middle class family and there are lots of myths and stereotypes about where women abuse or domestic violence occurs. There was public display that this happens in upper middle class families. I think that's one reason that there was a A lot of publicity, because I think the situation is not terribly unusual. I think it happens much more often than we are exposed to in the media. Robert Lipsyte I, you must feel the same way I've read the book and it's it's the rub between the Joel and Hedda characters. That's the the fabric of the book. Susan Brownmiller Well, that was the relationship that I wanted to explore. Yeah, the psycho dynamics between the violent batterer and the woman who chooses to put up with the battery out of what I consider to be really misguided and abnormal concepts of love. And, of course, ultimately, the victim is an innocent child. Yeah. Robert Lipsyte And you felt that she had the control somewhere along the way to step out. Susan Brownmiller Oh, to get out? Yes, I think that in in with Nussbaum and Steinberg. When Hedda Nussbaum met Joel Steinberg in 1975. She was already 32 years old. And I think that she was an adult, Robert Lipsyte she should have she to do that she shall we have another clip of Hedda Nussbaum's testimony, which might shed some more light on her state of mind.
00:07:44 373.81	Host Lipsyte cuts to another clip of Hedda Nussbaum testifying in court.
00:08:43 432.88	Back in the studio interview with Phyllis Frank and Susan Brownmiller continues.
00:08:45 434.58	INTERVIEW: Phyllis B. Frank Asking what she should have done is a little bit different than asking what she could have done. And again, I think at the time that this experience was happening, she was unable to do anything other than exactly what she did Robert Lipsyte I'm willing to consider a first draft question. What could she have done? Phyllis B. Frank I mean, I think that what we're seeing again, is not just to be taken at face value, that particular instance, but in light of the long history that she already had, with Joel relying on him completely, losing her own ability in the course of her terrorization and battering to think clearly and to respond in a way that would seem responsible at this juncture. And I think the word you used earlier, that she chose to stay needs to be taken in light of the choices women do and don't have in our culture. And I must see Hedda, in that perspective, not as a person with total and freewill and ability to make those kinds of decisions Susan Brownmiller Phyllis certainly at the end. She was a woman in the in the throes of a severe cocaine psychosis as I believe he was. But I don't think that the death of Lisa Steinberg was this isolated six weeks, last weeks of her life, that of course, the trial has to focus on those were the terms of the indictment last six weeks in the death of a child, one could have seen perhaps or in hindsight, you look back, and you see that this was a child who was in jeopardy. From the minute he brought her into this household, because there were two adults who were snorting cocaine and freebasing. Cocaine as early as 1980. Lisa came into their lives in 1981. And that's where you say, I hold both of them responsible Robert Lipsyte Susan you use the term cocaine psychosis. I wonder if that really acts against your point of view? It would it would add to the possibility of her being helpless, unable to think rationally unable to act out the free will that you would have an independent woman act out. Susan Brownmiller Obviously neither of them were thinking rationally. So no, cocaine psychosis is is falls under the rubric of voluntary intoxication. Under the law, and also Robert Lipsyte Do you think falling in love is voluntary intoxication. Susan Brownmiller That's a more interesting issue than cocaine psychosis. And I think especially I'd love to, I'd love to I just want to say that cocaine psychosis to me does not absolve someone of moral responsibility, because it's voluntary. Yes. Does the intoxication the falling in love is the fascinating part because this is certainly part of it as women, you would agree absolutely. less as women we are brought up to want to find that man who is going to sweep us off our feet and take care of us for the rest of our life doesn't work out that way often folks in real life, but some of us have been able up majority of women are able to walk out of a emotionally destructive relationships and of course, physically destructive relationships, that this particular woman chose to, to numb her pain, both physical and psychological by resorting to drugs is not an it's not an excuse Robert Lipsyte I can't quite get away with chose you just said chose to numb her pain that she she made a decision that she wanted to stay in this relationship and close her eyes to what was happening both to herself and ultimately to the children that she had some responsibility. Are you. Are you agreeing with all of this? Are you following? Phyllis B. Frank Well, I'm following what you're saying. And I Robert Lipsyte Are you agreeing with her saying that that Hedda Nussbaum made choices. And that ultimately, she's culpable. Even if she was helpless to make the choice to get out or to save Lisa, she's culpable because she made choices to numb herself to what was going on. Right? Susan Brownmiller Right. Robert Lipsyte Do you agree with that? Phyllis B. Frank no, that's not quite how I would say it. I think that you are raising a point that at the point that the child first became endangered, you are saying that she could have gotten out Susan Brownmiller Lisa was endangered from the minute he brought her into that 10 Street apartment. What Phyllis B. Frank I would suggest to you is that for many women, that is a point where they can extricate themselves, and in fact, do battered women tell us that they leave at that point. Many battered women do not. And I do not agree that most of us get out of destructive physical and emotional marriages. 50% of all American marriages have at least one incidents of wife abuse in them during the course of the marriage 20 to 30%. That abuse is severe and ongoing. So I'm not sure most of us get out of it. Robert Lipsyte We're gonna explore that further.
00:13:48 738	Host Lipsyte announces a break and cuts to a pre-recorded interview with Thea DuBow , a victim of an abusive relationship.
00:13:53 742.89	Wide shot Host Lipsyte sitting at small round table in studio with guest, Thea DuBow.
00:13:57 746.18	INTERVIEW Robert Lipsyte: anything in your own mind any memories of your own relationship? Thea DuBow Yes, it did. Bob, it made me really know how much control a man can have over a woman? Robert Lipsyte Did your husband have the same kind of control over you that Joel Steinberg had over the Hedda? Thea DuBow Well, I can definitely see some similarities from what I've heard and read. Robert Lipsyte And you were married when you were 21? And what was the How did it start? What was the beginning what things happened? Thea DuBow Well, looking back in retrospect, I can see that before the actual physical violence that my husband used on me. There was he first isolated me, from my family, and from my friends. And I stopped driving as a result of his control. Robert Lipsyte What else? How did he How did he cut you away from your, your support systems, your friends, your family? Thea DuBow Well he intimidated my friends, he made it uncomfortable for them to be with me. He wanted to be in on our conversations, know what was said when he wasn't around. So my friends, one by one, stop calling me or coming around. And my parents, I would go over to their house and my parents would say, a lot of negative things about my husband, and I knew that they weren't all unfounded. And I go home, and I'd be upset. And my husband would ask me what's wrong Thea? And I would say that I felt upset. And I tell him why. And he'd say, Well, if your parents upset, you don't see them. And so on two different occasions, I didn't speak to them for a year at a time. Robert Lipsyte Did he dress you? Thea DuBow Well, he did select the clothing that I didn't buy. We went to the store together and when I would try things on, he would tell me what he thought of them and I would purchase whatever he liked. Robert Lipsyte Did you like that in the beginning, that kind of attention? Thea DuBow Initially, I thought it was affection. I thought it was him being loving. And now I know that it was him being controlling. He would take me work. He would meet me for lunch and he would pick me up. Isn't he attentive? What better way to gain control over someone than to be with them all the time and not allow them to touch base with other people, not to reality test with other people. Robert Lipsyte At what point did the violence begin? Thea DuBow The violence didn't begin until the isolation was set in place. First he laid some groundwork, and then the violence did begin. And it started with a slap. And he was so sorry. He was never going to do it again. He lost his head. And I forgave him, like so many other women do, as women in the society were taught to be very forgiving and be very much the nurturer. Robert Lipsyte Now, now, once you realize that it was a recurring pattern, you you weren't able to leave. Thea DuBow Unfortunately, I never realized it was a recurring pattern, until out of until I was out of the situation. While I was in that relationship, I thought that the abuse was my fault. I wasn't abused as a child. And for someone to hit me, I thought that I must have done something terribly wrong. Robert Lipsyte How did you resolve the relationship? Thea DuBow Unfortunately, I was convicted of manslaughter in the first degree and spent three and a half years at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility. Robert Lipsyte You don't, you don't consider killing one's husband in such a relationship and option. Thea DuBow It's definitely a non option. If I was educated, to abuse, I spent 19 years in school, and I had no education to domestic violence, to the symptoms of domestic violence and its dynamics, I feel that I would have been equipped to pick up the early warning signs and leave that relationship in a timely manner. Robert Lipsyte So you don't feel as some people do that, that Hedda Nussbaum should also be convicted for manslaughter, one along with Joel. Thea DuBow No, I do not feel that way. Although I do feel that she was responsible as the mother of Lisa, I feel that she was incapable of action. Robert Lipsyte When you get out now talking to groups, talking to other women out there. What's the first thing that you tell them to do? Do you tell them that the first time they're slapped for the first time, there's that sense of violence just to get out of the situation? Thea DuBow Well, I don't tell women to do anything, I will present the facts about domestic violence, and tell them what the probability is statistically, that it will be a reoccurring thing and how many women it happens to how frequently it happens. And I will offer them support. And I will give them resources where they can receive support in their community. And it's up to them to decide what they would like to do, Robert Lipsyte you're not going to add to their control. I mean, you're talking about empowering them to make their own decisions. Thea DuBow That's correct. In an abusive relationship. Whether a woman stays or leaves may be the last decision that she has left, her abuser is making all the other decisions for her. Robert Lipsyte Thank you very much for being with us. Thea DuBow Thank you
00:19:57 1106.5	Interview concludes.
00:19:59 1108.15	The Eleventh Hour graphic
00:20:06 1115.44	Host Lipsyte is back in the studio and interview continues with Phyllis Frank and Susan Brownmiller.
00:20:09 1118.13	INTERVIEW Robert Lipsyte: the kind of loss of sense of self isn't there, Phyllis B. Frank there is no more compelling argument against the point of view that you're presenting Susan, then the combined voice of the battered women's movement so beautifully spoken by a formerly battered woman Thea. It says it all it really helps you to understand that women very often at the point where we the public would say yes, she should leave, have already been so systematically terrorized. She can't do it. She simply can't do it. Robert Lipsyte And yet not for me to speak for Susan Brownmiller. She did talk about an educational process that would have given her the sense to get out, didn't she? Susan Brownmiller I disagree with you, Phyllis on the question of terrorized when we're talking about Hedda Nussbaum. Hedda did not say that she lived in terror of Joel. She said she loved him and thought he was a human God. And I find that compelling too. I mean, I think Thea is an extraordinary witness Robert Lipsyte Well isn't that a kind of terror, Susan, I mean to have that kind of total misapplication of love. Susan Brownmiller It began very early Bob in their relationship. She had barely met this man when she She began to attribute to Him supernatural powers. And as a feminist, let me tell you, the first miracle she attributed to him was that she could wear high heels for the first time in his in her life, because she used to have trouble with her feet. The second miracle was that she had a spastic colon that righted itself after she moved into his apartment. The third miracle was that she got a lot of raises at work, not because she thought she'd been good at work, but because he told her to go in and be more assertive. So he became her God, her therapist, her lover, her controller, her batterer, Robert Lipsyte and you still feel she was in control of her life after all these feelings? The reason? The thing I would like to answer is that, so much of my so much of my thinking, is informed by your book against our will. And as I think a lot of people who would be proud to call themselves feminists in some way, and and the idea that one of the threads of that book, one of the important things that I think we will learn from it, was the idea of taking our personal point of view from the oppressor. Susan Brownmiller May I say something, since you so kindly brought up against our will, there are, I feel very important differences between rape and battery that I believe the women's movement has not sufficiently explored. Rape is an isolated incident, where there is an aggressive assailant and a victim who could be any woman. In battery, you have a sustained relationship conducted over many years, there is no one isolated incident, there is a pattern of abuse, and a pattern of denial. And, and a working very hard on the woman's power to last the word here to to give herself excuse a pattern of excuses for the batter, that the woman goes through constantly, constantly trying to give him the excuse, saying it won't happen again. Therefore, I think we have to have a different response to the victim.
00:23:42 1331.15	Robert Lipsyte But there's the similarities are there in the fact that the the woman so often thinks that she was the one who provoked the attack, whether it was a discrete rape or a pattern of battering, that she's lost her support system, whether it's the batterer who isolated her from her family, or whether it's a political social police system that is not responsive to her to her needs? Susan Brownmiller Bob What about the mind, the mind that looks in the mirror and sees a broken nose and concludes that the man loves her? Now, the three of us here Robert Lipsyte Well do you think that that's a sane mind? Phyllis B. Frank Again, if you look at the whole history, you will see women who see that broken nose and who also have a batterer, who is saying tearfully, that he's sorry that he will never do it again. A broadcaster who did a documentary on domestic violence out of Chicago interviewed a man who had severely beaten numerous times a woman who had now separated from him. The man cried in the interview, and the newscaster said, I was touched. I almost believed him. And I can bet imagine what it's like for that woman who so wants to believe him whose very life and very often sustenance relies on staying with that man, how she could believe him over and over again, hoping that this would be the last time Susan Brownmiller well, batterers are often psychopathic. charmers, correct? Phyllis B. Frank Well, I wouldn't use the word psychopathic, although the degree that they are able to be functioning, often well liked high standing men in their communities. Yes. Susan Brownmiller But on the other hand, do we not have extreme gullibility or such narcissism where the woman wants and succeeds in rationalizing everything that you and I would say, well, that's appalling. I say hit you. He. He obviously doesn't Phyllis B. Frank I say absolutely. No, I don't believe we have gullibility. I think we have cultural norms. I think we have societal input input. I think we have rigid sex roles that we women are raised with that do not make us gullible. It makes us susceptible to the messages that we've gotten. And it takes consciousness and books like against our will, to help us to begin to be sensitive to get the domestic violence information. Robert Lipsyte You seevvbattering is really a part of the fabric of our society question about it, and you see it as an individual piece of freewill that has to be Susan Brownmiller to see it as part of the fabric of our society too. But I'm saying to women, that it's time to stop saying I was a victim. I was a victim I was a victim. It's time that women look early, early in the relationship and say, Hey, is this in my self interest? I fooling myself, I've got to get out. Because Hedda Nussbaum had people Robert Lipsyte do you think women who can do that would have would be in that relationship in the first place for that long? Susan Brownmiller I don't know if I can answer that. Robert Lipsyte Do you see yourself? I mean a cipher. Where's Susan Brownmiller Bob? I wouldn't have been in that relationship. But let me tell you something. Yes. But wait a second. I also think that the Joel Steinberg's of this world would stay away from people like me, and they'd stay away from people like you Phyllis Robert Lipsyte Do we think there's a commonality in the women who get battered. do you how do you feel about that? Phyllis B. Frank I think every woman is at risk. Robert Lipsyte You don't think there's a psychic profile? Phyllis B. Frank No, there is no psychic profile. Robert Lipsyte It could happen to anyone Phyllis B. Frank It could happen to anyone Robert Lipsyte somewhere there's a lawyer so hips so smart that even Susan Brownmiller would be fooled for a while Phyllis B. Frank I've met him. And I've met many like him. Yes, there is no question about it. Yeah, women are at risk. And part of the reason that society wants to blame the victim and find some way to make her culpable and responsible for the violence against her is so that the rest of us don't feel vulnerable. So the rest of us can feel it couldn't happen to us. But we've worked in the battered women's movement for enough years. It's 15 years old, listening to 1000s hundreds of 1000s of Theas has really helped us to know something that we didn't know before afraid Robert Lipsyte we're going to have to stop it there Phyllis Frank, Susan Brownmiller, thank you so very much for being with us.
00:27:52 1581.58	Interview concludes. Host Lipsyte thanks guests and announces domestic violence hotline numbers to appear at end of program
00:28:03 1592.93	Host Lipsyte announces show and introduces himself. show ends.
00:28:10 1599.79	show credits overlay wide shot of Lipsyte, Frank and Brownmiller on sofa in studio.
00:28:37 1626.43	Funding for the show is announced and overlays the Eleventh Hour graphic.
00:28:48 1637.77	reel ends.