19731970S TELEVISION SHOWS
"IS THE ATKINS DIET DANGEROUS?"
DR. ROBERT ATKINS VERSUS THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (AMA). WITH DR. ROBERT ATKINS, DR. SAMI HASHIM
DR. ROBERT ATKINS VERSUS THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (AMA). WITH DR. ROBERT ATKINS, DR. SAMI HASHIM
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| 01:02:07 0 |
"IS THE ATKINS DIET DANGEROUS?"
DR. ROBERT ATKINS VERSUS THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (AMA). WITH DR. ROBERT ATKINS, DR. SAMI HASHIM |
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INTERVIEW BEGINS:
David Susskind Raging headline arguments is Dr. Robert Atkins and his new diet book versus the medical societies of the country. We have Dr. Atkins and another doctor tonight to discuss the argument. Dr. Robert C. Atkins is author of the best selling book, Dr. Atkins diet revolution, the high calorie way to stay thin forever. So far, the book has sold over 800,000 copies. Dr. Sami A Hashim, is Director of the Division of metabolism and nutrition at St. Luke's Hospital Center in New York, and professor at Columbia University. Dr. Hashim has served on the New York County Medical Society panel, which called the Atkins diet quotes, unscientific, unbalanced and potentially dangerous. You've had a lot of flack in the last few weeks Dr. Atkins Dr. Robert Atkins you better believe it? David Susskind How does it feel to be roundly denounced by your peers? Dr. Robert Atkins It's, it's totally bewildering. You know, when I when I started practice, about 10 years ago, in this particular area, it was practice was a very happy and gratifying experience. Because I had discovered a diet that people could live on a diet that made them feel better, it incidentally made them lose weight. But the thing that was so exciting about it was the mark remarkable good health that they experienced, and the other medical problems that seemed to clear up along with the diet. And in those years, I just couldn't wait to wake up in the morning, and go to my office and, and get the sense of gratitude that I was helping so many people. Finally, after about seven or eight years of this, I made up my mind to write a book. And in the book, I did everything within my power to project to the public in general, what I had been doing with in treating my patients, and the book was well received. Because the readers of the book, were able to do pretty well, just what my patients were able to do. They were feeling better, they were losing weight, they were following a diet that was easy, a diet that didn't leave them hungry. And lo and behold, is though by some concerted attack in the month of March of 73, bang, bang, bang first the AMA, then two days later, the county medical society then then a magazine article and news broadcasts all over the country. My diet is dangerous, something that I had never observed. Things that were said about my diet that never took place. They said it caused the kidneys to shut down in 10,000 patients not one patient ever had a kidney shut down, or even an incipient kidney shut down. Other claims were made that would destroy fetuses, things that just never took place David Susskind induce high cholesterol Dr. Robert Atkins that it would induce high cholesterol that it would that it would cause you name it, David Susskind nausea Dr. Robert Atkins nausea the opposite David Susskind Profuse sweating, weakness, fatigue Dr. Robert Atkins Lethargy, apathy, you everything. David Susskind Dr. Hashim, Is it true? Dr. Sami Hashim Yes, sir. First of all, I think the statement that the diet is unscientific relates to the fact I think that the book and I speak only of the book at the moment does not contain data. That is acceptable, for example, in any scientific publication that I know of. When you say unscientific, you have to have controls, you have to have data, you have to show your peers and the world and the public, that the material that you are claiming is doing is affecting x to y should be reproduced by your peers, it should be reproduced by anyone who wishes to replicate your data. That's number one. Number two, the fact that the diet is unbalanced is also true, because it is unbalanced. When you eliminate one out of three major nutrients. It is 33% not only sugar, but carbohydrates. It's 33%. Unbalanced and I think Dr. Atkins himself called it an unbalanced diet. So deliberately unbalanced. Okay, fine. The the third statement there is that it is potentially dangerous, does not mean at least to me, that it is dangerous to everybody, except for heaven's sake, it can't be dangerous to everybody. It's potentially dangerous. And I think that needs to be David Susskind Dangerous in what specific respects Dr. Sami Hashim dangerous in in many respects in the respects that you have mentioned. Supposing you have let us take the point that Dr. Robert Carr from rush Medical College in Chicago, the mansion. The point is that if you take a diet like this, if you are on a diet like this and let us assume for a moment that you have incipient kidney disease, okay? Now out of 10,000 people, it's inconceivable that one would not have incipient kidney disease. Now to that particular individual, it is dangerous David Susskind to eliminate carbohydrates. Dr. Sami Hashim That is correct. David Susskind Do you think we should say that Dr. Atkins diet is essentially low minimum intake of carbohydrate? Dr. Sami Hashim Well, it starts out with zero it starts out with zero and Dr. Robert Atkins For exactly one week Dr. Sami Hashim for one week, and then it goes up to 40 grams, I believe Dr. Robert Atkins Well it goes up to a person's critical carbohydrate level. In other words, for each individual, it might be a different level, it might be 20 grams for one person and 55 for another, Dr. Sami Hashim right, but it's never 100 For anybody because at that time, way off, before you reach 100, the ketone, massive production stops David Susskind ketone Dr. Sami Hashim ketones Do you want me to define that David Susskind for civilians, yes Dr. Sami Hashim ketones are substances produced exclusively by one organ in the body, and that is the liver which is located somewhere here. On the right side. These substances are derived from breakdown products of in the process of metabolism in the process of what we call oxidation of nutrients. If I take a match head, for example, and light a cigarette, the cigarette is lit within a second, right and it burns. Now our body undergoes processes that are very similar to that it, but if it burns quickly, we're obviously finished. So it's burning slowly in the process of the burning, some of these substances are produced under certain conditions, actually, two major conditions, one in normal people now and people have no disease, one is total starvation. If you deprive yourself of food completely except waters, alright, you will produce excessive amounts of these ketones to if you if you eliminate carbohydrate from the diet, then you also produce excessive amounts of ketones. But let me point out right now and early and I think this is an inaccuracy in the book. And that is this, the amount of ketones that are produced in the body under the most adverse conditions, if you will, under total starvation, which produces more keto Noria, that is more excretion of ketones in the urine, okay, under total starvation, the amount of ketones that are produced that are excreted does not exceed more than 15 grams, which means really half an ounce of ketones, which equals to about 75 calories. Dr. Robert Atkins Did that help you? David Susskind Not really No, Dr. Sami Hashim not really. Okay, David Susskind I take it I got it is dangerous to minimize, let alone eliminate carbohydrate intake, you feel there is no danger? Dr. Robert Atkins Well, I feel that when we're treating an overweight person, who can whose body has a lot of fatty tissue, and we deliberately restrict carbohydrates, then the body will turn to the next source of fuel that is that is available under the circumstances of no carbohydrates, which is the stored fat, the basic purpose Dr. Sami Hashim May I interrupt. Is this freewheeling order by the water. It is fair to say that when the carbohydrate is eliminated from the body, not the body doesn't not only turn to carbohydrate, but it also turns to protein. Dr. Robert Atkins Well, I think it turns primarily to two sources, one primarily to the stored fat. And secondarily, remember in the diet, the source of protein is most readily available as the dietary protein because it is a high protein diet. And so that the source of protein that people are going to refer to and some adversaries of this diet have said that, in the in this situation, muscle tissue will burn as a fuel. But in point of fact, it's the protein in the diet that primarily serves as the fuel along with the stored fat. When this happens, evidence of its occurrence takes place because these ketone bodies are present, they're present in the blood and because of President of blood they they spill over into the into the urine, and they can be detected in the urine. Now the purpose of the diet is to try to titrate the level so that not too much and not too little ketones are available in the urine. This is a rough rule of thumb, which doesn't hold true 100% of the time because some people do better with it. More ketone urea. And some people do better with less than that. What about David Susskind But the idea is a pre election pre disposition to high cholesterol? which induces a arteriosclerosis. Heart disease. What about that? Dr. Robert Atkins there is no question about what a high cholesterol induces, what the contention between my data and the allegations of the various medical societies are, is that this particular diet can cause an elevation of cholesterol level. Now, they were very careful to say, in their press release, that individuals who respond to such a diet with an elevation of serum fats run a higher risk of heart disease. But what they pointedly did not mention is that this is really a very small percentage of percentage so small that it is far outnumbered by the group whose cholesterol levels and triglyceride levels go down. David Susskind But on your diet, you may freely have fatty foods, eggs, bacon's anything. Cream, yes, take the foods that cause high cholesterol, Dr. Robert Atkins only in part, because most of the cholesterol in the body is that which the body manufactures or synthesizes itself. It's been estimated through, I think, generally accepted in the medical literature that only about 25% of the cholesterol is that which is taken in in the diet, and 75% is that which is manufactured. And so by changing the carbohydrate content of the diet and reducing it, we can reduce the manufacture particularly of triglycerides, but also we can reduce the manufacture of cholesterol. And we can in the majority of cases, get a cholesterol reduction. Now, despite the fact that the theory is that the cholesterol will go up, the observed facts are different. Dr. Sami Hashim Well, I can speak of experience here since I've been interested in cholesterol metabolism for over 15 years. I can produce cholesterol, high cholesterol levels in people and certainly in experimental animals, but in people by feeding them eggs. The history of cholesterol Dr. Robert Atkins with or without carbohydrates in the diet Dr. Sami Hashim with or without carbohydrates, it does not matter. Dr. Robert Atkins Are you sure Dr. Sami Hashim I'm positive now? That 19 in 1936? May we have little historical perspective, I think here for the for the public about this is very important, I believe. In 1936, a man who I think should be immortalized is by the name of Rudolf Schoenheimer right here at Columbia University. He had come from Germany. And while in Germany before 36, he had discovered that you if you put people with high cholesterol levels, okay, on diets that are rich in polyunsaturated fats, your cholesterol goes down. And if you put them on diets that are rich in saturated fats, their cholesterol goes up regardless of the other ingredients of the diet. Now, if Dr. Atkins mentions that we're, we're in fact his patients cholesterol are going down. I think the data should be provided for us to see. But even if the cholesterol is not, is not going up, I would say that it is potentially dangerous to to advise people to eat saturated fats. I have two tools here to show you what I mean by that. I have two tubes here. One of them is an unsaturated fat, David Susskind Can we get that on camera. Which one is the unsaturated? Dr. Sami Hashim Well, I don't think you have to really even guess. What do you say, David? That's it. Yes, sir. This is the unsaturated fat, and this is the saturated fat. Now at body temperature of the saturated fat is still a solid fat. This is obviously not body temperature outside here, but body temperature is 98 six or 37 degrees centigrade. This is still solid fat, okay, the body will have a heck of a time disposing of this fat in contrast to this fat, you don't even have to have any scientific study when you kind of see this. When you finish a fat on saturated fat dinner on your plate, you see a skim of solid fat, and it's still warm and maybe even hotter than body temperature and wait for it to get a little bit more solid and you will see it it's really solid. And I don't believe we should recommend to the American public. After 35 years of evidence over 1000s of publications have references of efforts and millions of dollars expended to show this point I can give you hundreds of references to show this even naval disaster goes down. Even as the cholesterol goes down, there is a difficulty in disposing of the saturated fats. David Susskind Hold gentlemen, we'll come right back to this point after a pause. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind If you've treated 10,000 patients you have a mass of data that could support your arguments, why don't you publish it? Well, I'm Dr. Robert Atkins Well, I'm in the midst of doing a retrospective analysis. I feel a now in view of the fire that I'm under that it has to be done. I presume that that my data which had been so repeated, no matter which laboratory I used, or which group of patients I was treating, I was getting the same data, the cholesterol levels were going down. And the triglycerides were almost disappearing, they were dropping to a fractions of what their original level was in, particularly in the people who had triglyceride problems. So that I was so convinced that this particular phenomenon of improvement in cholesterol and triglyceride levels took place that I felt that that me as a practicing physician didn't have to do the kind of work that should be done by by hospital based physicians who are in a position to do prospective studies. But now that they've placed my professional reputation on the line, I'm going to retrospectively now analyze the 10,000 cases, Dr. Sami Hashim but the cat is out of the bag, though you have already given your conclusions you see before the public. Before you analyze your data, you said you're in the process of analyzing data Dr. Robert Atkins It doesn't make a differece. they have been tabulated. But the point is they haven't been mechanically tabulated Dr. Sami Hashim Well don't you think it would have been preferable to look at your data before the book is was out? For example, Might, Might you not have found some maybe different conclusions, maybe other things? Dr. Robert Atkins No, Dr. Sami Hashim no. but you published the data first Dr. Robert Atkins There is so many data that I studied before I wrote that book. I certainly did a tabulation of 1000 cases. There's no question of what happens when you see these patients day in and day out. And you're getting David Susskind in 10,000 cases. Robert Atkins no case of kidney damage. Dr. Robert Atkins Absolutely, we're talking about kidneys shut down. There have been no cases of kidney shutdown. There have been a few patients whose urea went up. With innovation, about one definitely checked against other kidney function tests, there was no sign of any abnormality except as you might find in the ordinary run of patients who might develop an intercurrent kidney infection. But certainly the diet does not cause impairment of kidney function. It despite the claims, I think this is a typical example of Dr. Sami Hashim potentially potential Dr. Robert Atkins You see all the criticism is his ivory tower reasoning, it's if this were to take place, then this would take place. They have no data. The AMA all the data on this Dr. Sami Hashim The data is in the literature. the AMA has no data. Of course the AMA is not allowed Dr. Robert Atkins But when has this diet been studied in the literature Unknown Speaker I can show you Several references. Dr. Robert Atkins All right. Now what you're saying is, you know about a similar study, or about a similar diet, but not the self same diet. Dr. Sami Hashim Well, now you are talking semantics David Susskind Is this guy a new and revolutionary Dr. Sami Hashim No sir is not new and revolutionary, because it's 100 years old. It started out with William Harvey 1872. And then we had a whole series of them Dr. Robert Atkins well, I've studied that Harvey Banting diet and there's nothing like mine that has a basic similarity. But I mean, a man was drinking claret, Dr. Sami Hashim how does yours differ for example from any diet that produces ketosis or that is low in carbohydrate? How does it differ? You tell me. From any diet David Susskind Dr. Atkins magic diet? How does it differ from any low carbohydrate diet? Dr. Sami Hashim RIght is that fair question? Dr. Robert Atkins All right, there are basically different levels of carbohydrate just like a low calorie diet might be a 1500 calorie diet or it might be a 400 calorie diet. So to might a low carbohydrate diet be a 60 gram diet or a zero gram diet or a 25 gram diet? Well, basically, this has no specific number of grams because The gram level is titrated and regulated for each individual. So it is a diet which ranges between 10 and 50, or 10 and 60 grams, all right, according to the response of the individual. So,but it has no restriction on quantity, except as the person's appetite automatically restricts the quantity if indeed, the appetite is suppressed, because appetite is suppressed, in the majority, but not all patients, David Susskind is that a new factor? No limit on intake, so long as it has no carbohydrates, or minimum carbohydrate Dr. Sami Hashim A new in terms of David Susskind new factor in diet. You said there's nothing new about it. Dr. Sami Hashim That's not a new factor. Because, for example, a number of years back now, a book, which was also a good seller, came out with unlimited number of calories, you know, calories don't count. You've heard about that. There was the word on limit Dr. Robert Atkins that wasn't studied in America. Dr. Sami Hashim By I haven't seen any data David Susskind Were you as exercised by Dr. Atkins book for the fact that it's just sold almost a million copies or because it's potentially dangerous Dr. Sami Hashim No, I of course not. I wish I mean, him all the luck in the world. I have nothing against that million copies, or 2 million copies. Now. So we're not arguing with that at all. I'm just simply pointing out certain scientific inaccuracies in the book. I mean, I have a lot of people to have had papers published and later on, they come back and say, my data, you know, was not correct. Then even in scientific literature. David Susskind Did the American Medical Society take such umbrage at Dr. Stillman? Dr. Sami Hashim I can't answer that. I'm not sure what Dr. Robert Atkins I mean. They didn't get a press conference, followed up by a local medical society press conference David Susskind Why didn't you take off after doctor Mr. Dr. Stillman. Dr. Sami Hashim What, why didn't Why didn't I take off David Susskind Your panel. The AMA Dr. Sami Hashim Well of course, I don't know the answer to that. But I think individually and some collectively we have I have personally taken off after Dr. Stillman. David Susskind All right, we talked about cholesterol. We talked about kidney damage, let's come to fatigue, apathy and nausea. Dr. Sami Hashim Well, the evidence for that is fatigue comes from the study of Canadian soldiers during the Second World War, and also dating back to a beautiful study Dr. Robert Atkins Let's talk about Canadian soldiers. I'm thrilled with them. I really am thrilled with the Canadian soldiers. Because this was the number one thing that Canadian soldiers all had apathy and fatigue on this diet. Well, their idea of this diet was to feed these poor slim, overtrained Canadian soldiers, nothing but pemmican Dr. Sami Hashim They weren't so slim for most pictures that Dr. Robert Atkins nothing but pemmican. Now none of my patients are allowed to have pemmican. And others other words, the diet was exactly the opposite. It was pemmican is a 70% fat, it's sewage, you know, 70% Fat 30% protein and the quantities of pemmican? Dr. Sami Hashim what is the composition of your diet? Dr. Robert Atkins The composition of my diet is approximately 50% protein and 50% fat was really 45/45 Dr. Sami Hashim I don't think you can say that. I don't think you can say that. It could be anywhere Dr. Robert Atkins you're basing it. You're basing it on grams. Dr. Sami Hashim The individual unlimited to go on on his own devices, as long as he avoids carbohydrates Dr. Robert Atkins what's a man gonna eat? If he's on a diet, he's gonna eat various cuts of meat. He's gonna eat chicken, fish Dr. Sami Hashim Cream cheese, eggs, right Dr. Robert Atkins Most of which are grams of whey protein and 20 grams of fat per ounce. Dr. Sami Hashim Yes, but it could you could push it in either direction. And either way, it's not so good for him. You see, because it could be up to 80% fat, or it could be up to 60% protein, depending on what the heck you ate. For example, if you eat a sodium caseinate, which is the protein and milk, which is of course not in his diet, I'm just giving this as an example. Okay, I can give you people look at eight 80% protein. It's that's nauseating. Of course. Dr. Robert Atkins Well, most people when given the full spectrum of everything that they're allowed to have, will end up taking a little of everything. And I think the diet pretty well fixes on approximately equal quantities, gram wise, between protein and fat because that's the basic distribution of a market. Dr. Sami Hashim That's That's all right. Oh, it's still but there is one point here, which I think is exemplified by a classic study now by Professor Christensen from Sweden, which was really It read every medical student is advised my institution at least if I have contact with them to read, and that study is ranges over a decade. That study showed unequivocally, that if you take an individual, whether he be obese or lean, and put him on a low carb hydrate died when subjected him to ways and means to detect his capacity to do work. His capacity to do physical activity is diminished on a low carbohydrate diet, and then you take that same individual and carbohydrate to his diet, his capacity increases to do work. David Susskind What say you of the Christiansen study Dr. Robert Atkins I was gonna ask you, you've been on this diet. David Susskind Okay, I'm glad you asked me because I'll tell. But I have to pause first, and render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's meaning time. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind You know, my wife and I went on this, Dr. Atkins diet and visited Dr. Atkins, and we're carefully supervised we started together about a year ago, I've had excellent success, if by that you measure the loss of weight, 20 pounds, and keeping it off, which I have accomplished, and no side effects whatsoever, cholesterol, health at the count that it was or somewhat diminished. My wife has had rather distressing side effects. She has occasional nausea, sudden and unpredictable, she breaks out into a cold sweat, sometimes Dr. Sami Hashim there you are Dr. Robert Atkins she wasn't when she was under my care. David Susskind Now, these are two separate people started at the same Dr. Sami Hashim So that's one out of 10,000 then we'll start with number one, your wife? David Susskind She evidently there is something that causes her occasionally distress, or sometimes you feel weak. I don't know what and when she does, she rushes for a glass of orange juice, or she eats a Hershey bar or she takes a Coca Cola. And she immediately picks up picks up. Now what what do you say to that? Well, I had no problem ever. Dr. Robert Atkins I think once you have interrupted the diet for whatever reason, then you do lose the continuity. If a person does go off the diet, then it there are a few days getting back on where the symptoms can appear because there's not time for adequate fat mobilization to take place. A an adequate amount of fat mobilization usually takes about three days before after an interruption of the diet. So if the diet is once interrupted, then then it really doesn't begin to exert its real, real beneficial effects until person has been back on it for three or four days. Now, if she's continuously getting symptoms, and continuously interrupting the diet, then she never really has a chance to get it on track. When she was coming to me, she did that and she wasn't having symptoms, because I remember the conversation. You were both doing great when you were both on at 100% David Susskind But one can't stay in on it. 100% Because the deprivation becomes monotonous and very telling. I mean you get to ravenous for a piece of candy. Dr. Robert Atkins But remember when you're Dr. Sami Hashim And nature is wise that's it ravenous as you say ravenous you know there are people with disease for example, in home, in home that is, for example, craving for salt, you know, nature tries to mend its ways, David Susskind because you must yours becomes in the book and by advice, verbal advice from you. It's a way of life. It's another way of eating. Dr. Robert Atkins Yeah David Susskind Dr. Atkins is recommending Dr. Robert Atkins Yeah David Susskind so it isn't something that begins and is then over? Yes, the severity of it lessons diminished. Dr. Robert Atkins When you're on a maintenance level, you're certainly not on no carbohydrates, you're on a low carbohydrate diet using that technique to prevent yourself from gaining weight. Sometimes you have to modify it, sometimes you've gained a few pounds, you have to get a little stricter to take them off. But in general, if there are carbohydrates in your craving, if it is indeed a craving for carbohydrates, there's room for some of this at a maintenance level. So that it's something that an individual in general can look forward to getting to the point where they can move up to a maintenance diet, which certainly is much more varied than that hard piece of work that's ahead of the overweight individual. I think we fail to take into account what the problem is that we're trying to treat. We have a person who is obese, let's say this is a great cause of suffering. There is no question that Herculean efforts have to be made, particularly in a phase of this individual's life, when they are finally going to honor their commitment to themselves and bring that weight from its previous obese state down to a normal weight where they can embark upon a maintenance diet. Now, it this is difficult at best. Using a low calorie diet it can be agonizing because the individual can be hungry using a low carbohydrate Data can be agonizingly monotonous, but not painful, the hungry because hunger is not a part of the diet. And I think this is what makes this particular very difficult phase of a human beings life so much easier because at least they don't have to contend with the agony of feeling hungry. David Susskind people who have occasional alarming symptoms, fatigue, nausea and so forth, should they go off it? Is it not for them? Dr. Robert Atkins Well, I would say that, that this to the readers of the book, and that the diet could be has been criticized on on three levels. One that it doesn't work, another that causes immediate side effects. And thirdly, that it causes a series of insidious side effects. Now, in the case where it doesn't work, or the case where it causes immediate side effects, I think it is human nature. For a person who say, for some reason, this diet is not working for me, I don't know why I'm not a doctor, maybe I should see my doctor to find out why the diet doesn't work for me, because each one of these people has 10 or 11, friends for whom the diet has worked. So they have a pretty strong feeling that the diet is supposed to work. And if this brings them to seek medical attention, then it is so improper. In the in the third case, the case which is causing the medical society some concern, which is the potentiality for insidious side effects, effects that the individual cannot himself know about. There is a very definitive protocol in the book, which goes something like this, get a medical checkup before you embark upon the diet and have a full series of blood tests done. After you've been on the diet for a while have another series of blood tests done, any insidious side effects that could possibly take place will be picked up. If indeed, the cholesterol were to climb up, or the uric acid were to climb up, this could be detected if the protocol of the book is followed. Dr. Sami Hashim Yes, but you know, as well as I do, for example, that when people look at a book like this, they're not gonna look at page 29. And say, 28, whatever it is, check with your doctor, they're gonna go to the meat of the thing, and they're gonna go, maybe the recipes and so forth, to the actual product realization of the diet. And in this way, then, patients are being asked to follow a diet indirectly not directly without checking with, you know, we we know, we all know this, if we if we are given a recipe on a silver platter, we're not going to go and check with that doctor, whoever it is, you know Dr. Robert Atkins Well would not then it be more appropriate for the AMA have said, if you're going to follow the Atkins diet, then get a medical checkup for us rather than crucify a man's reputation. without calling him in, I was aware that David Susskind Were you never called in by the AMA Dr. Robert Atkins Oh, are you kidding? David Susskind Why didn't you call him in? You're on the County Medical Society, you condemned him? Why didn't you call him in? Dr. Sami Hashim You want. You're right. You want me to tell you not only that, call him I had dinner with him three, four weeks ago, whatever it was. And we talked just the way we're talking now. Dr. Robert Atkins And let me tell you what happened with that. Dr. Sami Hashim So I called him in. Dr. Robert Atkins Let me tell you what I say, Sami, I said, I want you to see my records. He says no, I'm sorry, I'm too busy for that I can't do and that was the closest I ever got to having anybody ever look at my records. I have pleaded I was talking about I have pleaded in public on other stations. For people to come and look at my data since they hadn't been published. Let them at least be aware of this. David Susskind There is another New York doctor on the scene who has for many years been injecting amphetamines into the arteries of patients, giving them euphoric highs. As your society denounced this doctor has been revealed in The New York Times for unpaid stories. Have you denounced him? Dr. Sami Hashim I can't answer that. Dr. Robert Atkins The answer is no, David Susskind You could answer it if you had denounced him Dr. Sami Hashim I haven't denounced No, because this isn't an area, David Susskind Is he as dangerous, in your view, as Dr. Atkins. Dr. Sami Hashim Well, I think he's dangerous, but I don't know I will make any comparisons between them. I'm denouncing him right now. Right this minute, I denounce him David Susskind All right, as a medical society, will you when you call a will you call a press conference and do the same that you did with Atkins Dr. Sami Hashim If I had the authority, which I don't and the power, which I don't I would call it tomorrow David Susskind Let me ask you a question. you call with Dr. Atkins basic thesis, which is that weight obesity is not the result essentially over eating. It's the inability of the body to metabolize carbohydrates. Dr. Sami Hashim This is I think another an inaccuracy, I really would have to call inaccuracy in the book, first of all, if fat mobile causation or mobile you know, when you move mobilize something out of a truck in that's we call mobilization getting something out of the store room, the store house, outside into the circulation, that's mobilization. Okay? Fat mobilization is occurring continuously continuously in our body to more or less degee depending on the machinery circumstance, right? It's not it's an equilibrium Exactly. Now, when fat is being mobilized from the fat store, where does it go, there is no mystery about this, this extensive documentation, what happens to it, it comes from the fat people, it goes into the circulation. And if the calorie input, okay, is now at a level equal to the energy expenditure, then that fat will come right back home to daddy, right to the fat depot under another guy's under another form. We don't want to be too technical about this, but the fat in which, or through which the, the form through which the fat leaves the body leaves rather than the the deep bow is like say like a bale. Okay, the, the form in which it comes back is something else, it's like two bears on a donkey. Now, the donkey brings it over and delivers it back to the depot, you know. So it's like a belt coming in and out, in and out, in and out. And it's estimated something like 3400 calories of fat go in and out every day like that. Dr. Robert Atkins Alright, let me try to shed my viewpoint on this, David Susskind we'll take that doctor after this very brief. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind It's a charming explanation, but what I want to know is you do not agree that it is the failure of the body to properly metabolize carbohydrates, but simply overeating because Dr. Sami Hashim that is correct. over eating and under exercising over the boy has to be the thermodynamic equation was called the first law of thermodynamics David Susskind over eating and under exercise, you say no Dr. Robert Atkins Well, to get back just to where Sammy was a few minutes ago, he talked about a constant amount of fat mobilization. But yet we're talking about trying to produce a situation in which the mobilization of fat is one of the predominant parts of the metabolic equation so that the person can end up really losing weight and losing his fatty tissue. Now, when this happens, let's say on a low carbohydrate diet or on no food at all, in the human urine, there can be detected a substance, which when injected into other species or other animals will cause these animals to mobilize their fat. This was described by three researchers in England as the fat mobilizing Saturday, mobilizing it probably yes, I think it has experimentally from what I've read. But nonetheless, it does produce this fat mobilization in animals so that obviously some substance exists. Now this is, as a matter of fact, only a part of the theoretic support to the diet. If there were no such thing as a fat mobilizing hormone, or if there were no such thing as a pituitary gland, which is from which this is supposed to be derived, it wouldn't make any difference, because the fact of the matter is, is that fat does get mobilized when carbohydrates are restricted. I would say the basic theory of the diet has to do with a disturbance in carbohydrate metabolism. That has to do with the fact that most overweight people by the time they are overweight, whichever came first, put out an excessive response of insulin when carbohydrates are taken in this is almost universally found in the overweight people. The purpose of the diet is to normalize this abnormal mechanism, the mechanism of putting out too much insulin and allowing the insulin mechanism to be more of a normal response. The protein in the diet calls forth insulin so that it's not that the insulin levels dropped down to nothing. It's just that they are significantly reduced. Dr. Sami Hashim And that causes insulin. One of my Associates has demonstrated that very beautifully Dr. Pesongiere, well I believe is in the audience. David Susskind Dr Hashim, let me ask you whether a lifetime diet 30 to 40 carbohydrate grams a day. Is that dangerous? For the average person? Dr. Sami Hashim that is some question that way he'll put it that way. If you say 30 to 40 grams of carbohydrate a day is producing a state of ketosis for prolonged periods, I would say that is potentially dangerous. Okay Dr. Robert Atkins Potentially. What is this word potential? Dr. Sami Hashim Because if I have another disease that's gonna kill me, Dr. Robert Atkins but a man's reputation is being crucified with the word potentially what percentage of people will find this state dangerous? Is it one half of 1%? Or is it 99.5%? Dr. Sami Hashim But You see, you would have to provide the data because Dr. Robert Atkins But I know what the data are. Dr. Sami Hashim But where is it? Dr. Robert Atkins Well, why don't they ask me before they crucify me? Dr. Sami Hashim That is a question that I think you have a point there. I don't know why. Dr. Robert Atkins Thank you. David Susskind But it also seems to me it's incumbent on you to publish your data forthwith. Dr. Robert Atkins forthwith. If I knew that this was going to happen to me, I would have done it before, but I did not anticipate that human nature could sink to these levels. David Susskind Human nature can sink to any level. doctor 40 to 50 is potentially dangerous. Not so safe. Okay. Now, minimizing sugar intake, is that dangerous? Because that's another aspect of his diet. No sweets Dr. Sami Hashim minimizing sugar intake? No, I think if you say it that way. No, I think that is probably a desirable thing. Of course. You, you, you. You read the testimony of people before the Senate nutrition committees, it's a good idea to diminish sugar consumption, because it's, it's it is high. There's no quick dental caries is a big problem this country, it's been called the number one problem. But you see that when we say it that way, we're talking about a different subject. Dr. Robert Atkins Not really, I'd say one of the most important things, the most important messages of my book is that sugar consumption is becoming overwhelming in our culture, that it's leading to a variety of illnesses beyond that of obesity. And not once in the AMA report was any plaudits given to the fact that that I am doing everything within my power to decrease the consumption of sugar on the part of the American public. This is totally glossed over in their report. It says there I'm doing only bad things, nothing but Dr. Sami Hashim you're not only doing that you're also pleading for taking in less carbohydrates in general, not only sugar, but other than carbohydrates. And now, if we eliminate carbohydrates from the diet, I think three quarters of the people in the world would starve Dr. Robert Atkins now wait a second, we're talking about this phase of the obese human beings life when he has to face up to his responsibility to get that excess weight off. Dr. Sami Hashim Well, let me let me say, Dr. Robert Atkins I'm not talking about telling people to go on a lifetime of no carbohydrates. We are telling people to go on a lifetime of dieting based on low carbohydrates, and a phase of dieting based on no carbohydrates. Dr. Sami Hashim Let me say this. I personally I have seen over 10,000 patients with obesity in the last 15 years. I can tell you that. I think obesity is a disorder that is quite prevalent in United States. There is no doubt about that. That obesity, health wise is something to be combated now that we are living in a time when some very, very provocative and very interesting research in the area of obesity is just about turning its page. And lo and behold, we see for example, federal funding being shut off from the scientists all over this country. I think there is on the horizon a great deal of hope for control of obesity, I am not pessimistic. I don't believe that there is any one diet that will control obesity. I think obesity is a problem that the individual has to interact with the environment and interaction with the environment is quite a process. David Susskind It's quite a process to pause again. We'll be back in a minute. |
| 01:46:24 2657.07 |
CUT TO BREAK
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| 01:46:40 2673.45 |
SLATE CARD-COUNTDOWN CLOCK
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| 01:46:49 2682.58 |
INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind Yes, what other aspects of the diet would you like to discuss? What about the pregnant lady? Is it dangerous for her? Dr. Sami Hashim Well, of course I personally I have had no experience with being pregnant with being pregnant. Thank you. But Dr. Adamson's at Mount Sinai Hospital at the press conference the other day, did mention some of his experience, if I could summarize very briefly if you like. He has shown that and others too, that the fetus utilizes Sugar, sugar, glucose, really glucose sugar exclusively. That is the fetus brain brain of the fetus, which is a very important, of course organ of the fetus. Now, if you deprive the fetus or lower its blood sugar, then you may endanger the future function of the fetus in terms of performance and IQ Dr. Robert Atkins Let me stop you right there. Do you believe that this diet lowers the blood sugar below the normal range? Dr. Sami Hashim Below the normal range? Dr. Robert Atkins Yes. Do you believe that this blood glucose levels on a on a 30 gram or 40 gram carbohydrate diet fall to levels below the normal range? Dr. Sami Hashim No. But the point that Dr. Adams is saying if a mother's blood sugar, for example, is 60 or 70, that that may be a situation where in the fetus blood sugar is lower than that. That's in point of fact, the mother's goes to fine but the fetus brain is suffering Dr. Robert Atkins And point of fact, I can state this has been another one of the statements that they have made, which is that if you cut out the carbohydrates that the blood sugar will drop and drop and drop below the normal range. And then all the the difficulties that have brain metabolism requiring glucose might ensue. But in point of fact, this just does not happen. There are plenty of homeostatic mechanisms within the body to keep that blood sugar in the normal range in the Dr. Sami Hashim Have you measured the blood sugar of the fetus? Dr. Robert Atkins Of course not Dr. Sami Hashim they have done what's the point David Susskind off the pregnant lady onto an aspect of your diet you recommend with this diet? Substantial intakes of vitamins? Dr. Robert Atkins Yes. David Susskind Is that because you're worried about side effects? Dr. Robert Atkins No, it's Because I learned I learned from doing actually it was in the management have side effects that I that I did have when I was first working with the diet. I think when I first started working with the diet, the percentage of side effects that I had to deal with were much higher than they are in recent years. Because in that period of time, I learned that most of the side effects the disquieting ones, not the serious ones, such as fatigue and dizziness could be ameliorated by the use of mega dosages of B vitamins C and a dosage of E, which was a Dr. Sami Hashim Have you mentioned A. Dr. Robert Atkins No, I don't give mega doses of a and I think if you read carefully, you'll see that I have said that the dosage of a cannot safely be given more than 25,000 units. And when they Dr. Sami Hashim You want me to show it to you. It's there David Susskind We must push along. I want to ask you about another charge the New York Medical Association of which I'm not overly fond, in its indictment of you criticize the advertising for your book. This is a typical ad for the book. It is the society said it was undignified it was |
| 01:50:40 2913.6 |
SUSSKIND HOLDS UP A PRINTED AD FOR THE ATKINS DIET
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| 01:50:41 2914.48 |
INTERVIEW CONCLUDES:
Dr. Robert Atkins Well I agree with that 100 percent. This is absolutely I think that's a terrible ad David Susskind now do you have control of that. have you protested Dr. Robert Atkins I have no control over that. There is a matter of fact Dr. Sami Hashim Why don't you have control over that? Dr. Robert Atkins I don't David Susskind Have you said I've got another book that will sell 2 million copies and you won't get it if you don't stop that advertising campaign. Dr. Robert Atkins Now we have they know that and they have stopped the advertising campaign. But this advertising campaign. When I first saw the ad, I started legal action to try to get it stopped. And it's taken this long to get it stopped. I couldn't agree more that that's an inappropriate ad one, which is totally out of my jurisdiction. David Susskind Another charge, and that is that you've written this book, it's sold almost a million copies. And what about the ethics, not medical ethics but personal ethics of writing a book that millions of people will read and automatically follow? Well, isn't what you're prescribing basically something to be done with a physician. Dr. Robert Atkins I think the message is clear Dr. Sami Hashim and a private setting. David Susskind And a private setting. isn't a book potentially dangerous in the sense that people have status. Dr. Robert Atkins Well, i i This is a problem. Of course, when you write a book, any diet book, I think if somebody would write a low calorie diet book A balanced diet, but there's nothing so remarkably safe about the balanced low calorie diet that it cannot have a potential of side effects for some people. Let's take the person with diverticulitis who is told that he has to eat a lot of roughage because that's the only way he can fill a stomach and still stay under 1400 calories while that roughage could cause anything from an intestinal blockage. There is a potential danger to that diet, there is a potential danger Dr. Sami Hashim that's not the only way to recommend a low calorie diet. Dr. Robert Atkins But the point is any any book, any diet book has the risk that it may be mis applied to an individual. And that's why precautions are taken in the book. It is obvious as I pointed out before that if the diet is not working, either because it's not working, or because there are side effects, most readers you must assume would not stay on it. I mean, who's masochistic enough to stay on a diet that deprives them of things he wants to eat? And of course, I tested it. Well, you may have tested that, but yet the AMA has stated that it doesn't. Dr. Sami Hashim The only reason it works is really because on that diet, for example, in your case, there was no way there was no way you could lose weight unless your total calorie expenditure was at a certain level. Which level was was a lower level in the pure previous level David Susskind Okay, two final questions. Is this book any more dangerous or any less dangerous than Dr. Stillman diet, the air the drinking man's diet, the Canadian Air Force diet, isn't it just another diet fad diet? Dr. Sami Hashim Yes, yes. David Susskind Why your Why be so exercise? Why why strike out this reputation and professional standing? Dr. Robert Atkins Oh, no, no, this is not a strikeout against his reputation. I know Dr. Atkins is a good doctor. This has nothing to do with his professional reputation, as far as I'm concerned, anyway. David Susskind Well you haven't enhanced it. Dr. Robert Atkins Well let me let me just Dr. Sami Hashim I have not enhanced it in the sense that I have were here when somebody has been spending his life studying things under controlled conditions. You know, I would have it's my obligation to the public. I feel otherwise I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. To bring forth to the public the products of my research, as I do every day David Susskind A final thing for you, Dr Atkins. Would you trade the the 800,000 sale and the paperback sale and the new celebrity status, for the denunciation to have it written off by your main peers? Dr. Robert Atkins You mean do I want things to go back to 1972. David Susskind Yeah Dr. Robert Atkins I don't I really don't know. I really think David Susskind Are you crying all the way to the bank. Dr. Robert Atkins No, it isn't that it's that I really believe that one day, the truth will become apparent. And one day the medical establishment will sit down and actually test this diet. David Susskind Will you give your royalties over to medical research? Dr. Robert Atkins I hadn't thought about that. Okay, I need something. David Susskind I thank you both, very, very much. We'll be back with more show. |
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