NT-3107

WNET New York graphic

The Eleventh Hour show graphics and opener.

Sitting at his desk Host Lipsyte talks about topic of today's show, Art and Money, as camera pans out and reveals a Vincent VanGogh painting propped up on his desk. Lipsyte announces upcoming guests.

Montage of clips depicting an auction getting ready to take place at Christie's Auction House: People walking up staircase, large paintings on wall above stairwell, people taking seats in auditorium, Christies sign on wall, painting by Joan Miro hanging on wall, Christies bidding paddles, etc.

Sign on wall "Christie's" "Welcome to Christie's"

Man holding up bidding paddle at Christie's auction.

Auctioneer at Christie's podium, making calls

Vincent VanGogh painting, "The Iris's" on podium displayed at Christie's.

Auctioneer at Christie's podium auctioning Vincent Van Gogh painting.

Picasso's painting, "Acrobat Young Harlequin", on wall at Christies. Big red "Sold" overlay and price $34,610,400 as Lipsyte unseen incredulously announcing the price. VanGogh's "Sunflowers" painting on wall with large red "Sold" overlay

Auction continues, auctioneer calling out pricing of $50million on VanGogh painting displayed on podium.

Host Robert Lipsyte in studio announces first guest, Richard Feigen, owner of the Richard Feigen Gallery in New York.

Interview Inserted:

Robert Lipsyte:
I'll buy it whatever it is. It's another cultural equivalent for sex, the art auction? Well, to help us understand what is happening in the art world, Richard Feigin, one of the most prominent Art Gallery owners in New York. He started the Richard Feigin Gallery more than 30 years ago, which leads me to believe you have seen some cycles in your time. Is this boom any different?

Richard Feigin:
I think it's different. And I don't think it's a cycle. I think that probably has been a real sea change and that art is in fact monetized now, been converted into some kind of a financial instrument. Unfortunately. A lot of us don't like that, but that's the fact of life.

Robert Lipsyte:
What are the forces that created that?

Richard Feigin:
I think the printing of too much money and disillusionment with other places to put it. Stock market, bond market, currencies, precious metals, a lot of precious stones, a lot of these things that prove very cyclical. And the impression given by the press, I think stimulated by the auction houses, is that art has only gone up in price. And therefore, I think that has been a self-fulfilling prophecy. So in general, we may not be in a cycle now, we may be in a permanent condition. Although I think within the framework of that condition, you're going to find certain things becoming unfashionable and dropping in price, certain things that are of regional interest, certain things that appeal to the Japanese market. We had that experience with certain things that appealed to the oil patch. And when trouble developed there, those things became unsaleable, elsewhere.

Robert Lipsyte:
You look not happy about this and yet, I would think, as a businessman, you'd be thrilled.

Richard Feigin :
Well, first of all, I'm not certain This is good for the making of art. I don't think it helps, these prices. Secondly, it isn't very good, I mean, our business has been fine. But it's very difficult to get things to sell. It's unlike any other business in the sense that we cannot create art. And there's only a limited amount of it- particularly good art. So that as prices ascend, people become unwilling to sell it, they want to hold it because they think it's going to keep on going up in price. They say, "what else am I gonna put my money into?" and I frankly don't have a good answer. Certain countries won't let it out because prices are getting so high that they feel their patrimony is being bled out of the country, and therefore they're going to block export. A number of countries have done that, and more are threatening it. So essentially, our problem is, how do you get the art?

Robert Lipsyte:
They're creating more money than they are creating art.

Richard Feigin:
There's a printing press in Washington to make the money and there's no printing press. To make Van Goghs.

Robert Lipsyte:
One of the things that surprised me was that art, the art boom seemed to survive the October '87 crash. That seemed to be symptomatic of something of which I don't understand.

Richard Feigin:
The morning after that October, Monday, I got on my telephone and I started shaking the tree trying to have some apples fall down, trying to see if anybody was frightened enough to sell some paintings, and that one apple fell into my basket. I think that people felt that the stock market was precarious, that the works of art were basically held and strong enough hands where they didn't have to sell them. And people said, look, the stock market is weak, it's vulnerable, but the art isn't so they held on. As a matter of fact, the art market got stronger rather than weaker.

Robert Lipsyte:
Yeah, culture as a as a commodity. Is there a dark side to that for society in general? I mean, is there something we should be concerned about? Is that a symptom of something that's happening in in our, in the way we live?

Richard Feigin:
Yes, I think first of all, it's symptomatic of the weaning away of Americans from the dollar, because 15 years ago, with enough dollars, you could talk people out of selling 9 people out of 10 out of selling a work of art, I think the fact that you can means that they don't want dollars anymore. And I think that if Americans don't want dollars anymore, the day may come when Europeans and Asians don't want dollars anymore. And that means a problem with funding our budget deficit. Furthermore, I don't think it's particularly good for an artist in his 40s to see his work, selling for a million dollars a piece, because I think that that really prevents him from taking risks or it can depending on his moral fiber, strength of character, it can make him wonder whether he should take a chance whether he should make something very different from his last show, and therefore take a risk that he's going to destroy that market. And I think that making taking risks is really what making art is all about. So I don't think it does the artists any good. We've already had one Casualty. We've had John Michel Basquiat, who killed himself with a heroin overdose at the age of 24 years old. I think there going to be other casualties.

Robert Lipsyte:
As a direct result of this kind of economic boom in art?

Richard Feigin:
I think it was a direct result of a boom and bust. I think that the the trendy art collectors walked away from his art.

Robert Lipsyte:
Thanks to Richard Feigin, I think we've got a bit on the economics of the art trade. We'll be back with two people, a critic and a corporate advisor with some thoughts on the tricks of the trade.

Show returns. Robert Lipsyte in studio, large works of art adorn the walls behind him. Sitting on sofa are Lipsyte's next two guests, Donald Kuspit (Art Critic and Professor at the State University at Stony Brook) and Jeffrey Deitch (Specialist in 20th Century Art).

Interview Inserted:
Donald Kuspit is an art critic and a professor at the State University at Stony Brook. Jeffrey Deitch, a specialist in 20th century art, ran Citi Bank's art investment department for nine years. Mr. Deitch, who still advises private clients, what's hot?

Jeffrey Deitch:
Every everything's hot today, with maybe one or two exceptions. Old masters are hot. Contemporary art is hot. Impressionism, of course is hot, and many people find that that's the problem with the art market. Where are the bargains? Yeah.

Robert Lipsyte:
Yeah. Professor Kuspit, let me ask you, are you offended at all by a question like, what's hot? And the answer?

Donald Kuspit:
No, I'm not offended by it. But I hope it's not the last question. Because many things that are hot, are really quite cold in terms of art. And I would say, what the market decides is interesting is not necessarily what in fact, will be interesting or will endure.

Robert Lipsyte:
Will, you know, find that somewhat democratic, that it's the market that's deciding rather than a professor at Stony Brook?

Donald Kuspit:
I find it slightly moronic. Not so much that a professor of Stony Brook should decide but that there should be a greater consensus about what is significant than the decisions of a half a dozen dealers and a dozen collectors.

Robert Lipsyte:
Yeah. Jeffrey, do you think it's more democratic?

Jeffrey Deitch:
Well, I do think that generally what the market likes is what does become art history, that ultimately the market is correct. Except, except- May or may get off, get on the wrong track for a while.

Robert Lipsyte:
Well, but the market, as we know is manipulated, the market is manipulated, because some young artists working in a in a grotto somewhere would never be recognized unless he happens to be in a 'hot' dealers gallery. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Donald Kuspit:
Yes, I would agree with that. I think it's not quite true what Jeffrey said that the market is marketplaces that where art history is determined, it looks that way. But it's not true. If you look, for example, the 19th century, the artists who brought in the most money was Rosa Boehner, who is today regarded as a minor artist and would hardly bring the same prices. It's not at all clear what things will look like 50 years from now, or 25 years from now, or 100 years from now. Museums' basements are full of works that are no longer credible as art, that are no longer significant. They may still have value on the market, there are markets made and unmade changing. Markets are a constant as it were. But the criteria for determination of significance, whatever you want to cut that culturally, aesthetically, are hardly what is decided on the marketplace.

Robert Lipsyte:
Let me let me say, I tend to agree with you. And yet, it was all respect, it does seem like a somewhat snobbish, on the face of it, and an elitist opinion.

Donald Kuspit:
No, I think what you have in the marketplace, is not really determination of art values. I don't think this is an elitist matter or not. It's a question of holding out for history, really. I mean, I have certain artists that interests me very much contemporary artists, but I'm not going to claim that these are, quote the greatest because they bring in extraordinary prices. I would be very hesitant to do that. I would want a more reflective approach. That's all I'm holding out for. if that's elitest, fine.

Robert Lipsyte:
Jeffrey, you're not going to hold out for history because you want to live in Trump Tower this week, right? I mean, you you unashamedly bring together art and the commodity aspects of art, right?

Jeffrey Deitch:
Well, I think that's where we are today. The most interesting younger artists mentioned Jeff Koons as an example, are engaged with the marketplace. That's one of the issues. That's our culture today.

Robert Lipsyte:
Yeah but one of the issues-

Donald Kuspit:
That's some culture, Jeffrey, that's some culture. That's not the whole of culture. And that's not where all artists are.

Robert Lipsyte:
Yeah. Is that culture or is it business?

Jeffrey Deitch:
Well, I think I think business is very much mixed in with our culture. And some of the most exciting contemporary artists are very much attuned to that. That's one of the issues.

Robert Lipsyte:
Well, one could be more sympathetic to that point of view, if there wasn't just so much public relations involved. I mean, merchandising and selling and hype?

Jeffrey Deitch:
Well, hype, celebrity, that is part of our culture, too. And, in fact, Andy Warhol made celebrity and hype into kind of an art form. And that's influenced a whole generation of younger artists.

Robert Lipsyte:
That must make you sick.

Donald Kuspit:
Not really, it's a cultural phenomenon, really. I study it as an anthropologist studies the behavior of a tribe

Robert Lipsyte:
You'll ride it out.

Donald Kuspit:
I ride it out, I accept it, it certainly tells us something about the society. I have no argument with that. I would say what the marketplace is about is really not sensitivity to art or to culture, as Jeffrey thinks, it's about sensitivity to money. I think Jeff Koons, for example, and we're giving him a plug now, unfortunately, is really about sensitivity to money, rather than to utilizing in some way the-

Robert Lipsyte:
Well, I don't I don't get his stuff at all. But let me let me say, say this. You know, you hold out for history, and you see, business's culture, and that's all fair and good. But there's a dark side to this, which is in art, as in Wall Street, there is insider trading.

Donald Kuspit:
That's correct.

Robert Lipsyte:
And it's not even as if the market is deciding the market is is being manipulated, and people are making decisions in boardrooms about what they're going to hustle and sell right?

Jeffrey Deitch:
The art market is a totally inefficient market. It, it can be-

Robert Lipsyte:
Inefficient or corrupt?

Jeffrey Deitch:
Well, there, there's some who would say that there's, there's an element of corruption, but I don't think it's significant. But it certainly is an inefficient market.

Robert Lipsyte:
But when you advise your clients, you're not advising them as to what is going to be valuable 150 years from now, because they'll be dead. You're advising them, as I say this with respect too, I guess, I don't really mean as harshly as it sounds, as a as a race track tout would advise what's going to win in the sixth at Belmont today?

Jeffrey Deitch:
Well, I start with with real faith in quality, and I advise my clients to buy something that I think is significant and of high quality. And one just has faith that in the long run, that's also going to be valuable.

Donald Cuspid (NT-3107) 16:08
What should I say to that? I don't think quality is a matter of faith. I think in fact, that there are such things as trends, fashion, etc. Some of these are quite interesting. Who would deny that? I think the question is what the determinants of quality finally are. And I do think the issue of manipulation of the market and the fact that was that

Robert Lipsyte:
How is that the manipulation of the market is exactly it! How is it decided who's going to be hot and who's not? What what does a dealer? How does the dealer decide?

Jeffrey Deitch:
I think it starts with the artists themselves, that the artists who are most exciting, surround themselves with other artists who are exciting. And the excitement is contagious. And people who are close to these artists pick up on it, and it it goes from there.

Robert Lipsyte:
But, I mean, somehow there's a sense that somebody is being anointed in some way, because certain critics will say, yeah, that's really, it's kind of interesting. And we can take a notebook and see that it's appropriation of a kind of image of thought, and it really is going to have significance. And I mean, and it's an Emperor's New Clothes.

Donald Kuspit:
I think what you say is very much to the point. Jeffrey speaks of most exciting artists, it's not clear who most exciting artists are. He's assuming a kind of monolithic system in which there's this magical thing called excitement, or exciting art that moves from certain artists. I see it as a more complicated system, I see a variety of kinds of art being made of different quality making different points, having different degrees of significance. I do not think there's any canon, absolute canon, of what is, quote, "the most exciting" or "most valuable" art being made right now. Let's forget history.

Robert Lipsyte:
And the canon may be who you're drinking with too. Donald, Jeffrey, thank you very much.

close up lithograph of painting by artist Rosenquist

Interview with James Rosenquist concludes. Host Lipsyte announces next guests.

Art collector, Marshall Efron a cartoonish type character in red bow, appears and talks very fast about his philosophy based on "the thrift shop test". He holds up various art works, demonstrating what passes the test.

Efron holds up a plastic a giant jujube, now a cultural icon.

Host Robert Lipsyte returns, introduces the show and himself as show ends.

Funding for show announced and overlays Eleventh Hour graphic.