Historic Films Stock Footage Archive: NT-3112

00:02:37 0.33	Show slate. The Eleventh Hour Item #1 Take 3, Show #112
00:02:59 23.16	From WNET New York graphic
00:03:04 27.33	Funding for the show by charitable organizations announced and overlay on the Eleventh Hour Graphic
00:03:19 42.98	Show opener
00:03:39 62.32	Tilt down on show host Robert Lipsyte and z'in. Lipsyte at his desk with an open book, looks up at camera and takes off his eyeglasses. He talks about the program's topic, philosophy and cuts away to a philosophy 101 statement, Tarsky's Theory of Truth, written on a slate board.
00:03:53 76.77	Slate: "Philosophy 101" underlined. "snow is white" is true if and only if snow is white.
00:04:21 104.45	The Eleventh Hour graphic
00:04:23 107.28	pan out on studio, Host Lipsyte sitting in chair and guest on sofa
00:04:27 110.36	Host Lipsyte introduces his first guest sitting on sofa, Matthew Lipman - a teacher who teaches critical thinking to 6 year olds, and Founder of the Institute for the Advancement of Philosophy for Children.
00:04:53 136.94	Interview inserted: Robert Lipsyte: Joining me is Matthew Lipman. After 16 years teaching philosophy at Columbia University, he left to found the Institute for the Advancement of Philosophy for Children at Montclair State College in New Jersey. He trains philosophers to train teachers to instruct school kids in the joy of reasoning. Thousands of schools around the country uses program and we'll see it in action at the Tuscan school in Maplewood, New Jersey. But first Dr. Lipman, a philosophical question. What is philosophy? Dr. Matthew Lipman: Well, the traditional definition is that it's a search for wisdom. But to me, it's improving reasoning and judgment with regards to the way people make and speak and do things. Robert Lipsyte: Now we're going to see your program in action in just a moment. Could you kind of help us by telling us what we're going to see, because it's not entirely linear, what these young kids go through. Dr. Matthew Lipman: They read from a little children's novel about someone called Elfie, who's about their age seven or eight years of age, and she's talking about her own thinking process. And in the course of that, she deals with some ethical issues and some educational problems that she's experiencing, and Robert Lipsyte: And the kids kind of come around. Right. In, in a not entirely linear way. Dr. Matthew Lipman: Right, they sort of form a little community of inquiry in the novel and in the classroom. Robert Lipsyte: Okay. Well, let's get to it. It's very exciting. And could you start by reading from your novel? Dr. Matthew Lipman: Okay.
00:05:56 200	Guest Matthew Lipman picks up book and reads an excerpt from it.
00:06:24 227.36	Cut to pan around a carpeted room with small children, about six years old, sitting cross legged on the floor holding and looking down at a paper in their hands. Female Teacher sitting with the children and reading a story out loud to the children. They follow along turning pages as she reads.
00:06:53 256.89	close up on cute little blond haired six year old girl
00:07:04 268.12	hand holding open manuscript, small little boy about six years old looking down
00:07:23 286.55	close wide shot of male and female kids sitting cross legged holding pages of a manuscript
00:07:30 293.74	Teacher asks a question. Kids raising their hands. Little girl in pink with bow in her hair hand gets picked and answers question emphatically.
00:07:36 299.62	Three children, six years old, sitting cross legged, a white boy, little white girl and an Asian girl listening.
00:07:43 306.59	Female teacher writing on white flip chart
00:07:46 309.86	Little boy sitting cross legged on floor with other children of different nationalities, Asian, African American and White, asks a questions.
00:08:12 335.78	wide shot of classroom with six year old kids sitting cross legged on the floor in a circle, flip chart in bkgd.
00:08:25 348.35	Small Caucasian boy about six, sitting next to African American little girl, answers a question intelligently. African American child is seen playing with her hair as he speaks.
00:08:38 361.96	close up shot, two sweet little 6 year old girls in the frame, one biting her fingernail as the other raises her hand.
00:08:42 365.92	close up on the face of cute little African American girl.
00:08:49 373.16	Another little boy surrounded by other fidgeting children, answers quite intelligently.
00:09:08 391.91	Male child in striped shirt, looking puzzled, poses a question.
00:09:21 404.39	Close up on little brown haired girl, answering a question.
00:09:32 415.8	var shots, six year old kids, fidgeting, thinking
00:09:47 430.68	Teacher poses question, kids raise their hands enthusiastically to answer.
00:10:21 464.93	Beautiful little six year old African American girl with braided hair and yellow bows, wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt.
00:10:53 497.28	various shots, kids answering questions, raising their hands, looking interested, sounding smart.
00:11:15 519.09	Eastern Indian female six year old, disagreeing with other kids, giving her opinion.
00:12:33 596.94	Back in the studio, Host Lipsyte continues interview with Matthew Lipman. Robert Lipsyte: Wow, philosophy looks like fun. But let me ask- which was not my experience. Let me ask you this. What makes that philosophy? I mean, it seems like so many other things. Dr. Matthew Lipman: They're reasoning together. They're exploring concepts together, concepts like what is real, what is a person? They are dealing with the conditions of knowledge, such as that, that your opinions have to be backed up with reasons, or exploring how you know something, or what evidence do you have for saying something? So there are many things that they are doing that are very similar to what a professional philosopher would do. Robert Lipsyte: But kids don't learn to do this in any structured way, normally in school? Dr. Matthew Lipman: No, no, I don't think so. I think that we teach syntax, and we teach spelling, and we teach the grammatical rules by which we understand language. But we don't teach the logic. We don't teach the reasoning process, we don't have an approach that tells them what is better, what are better and worse ways of reasoning better or worse ways of thinking. Robert Lipsyte: What is the boundary between doing philosophy as these kids do it and things like discussing values and secular humanism, and all the things that seem to cause friction in a lot of school systems around the country? Dr. Matthew Lipman: Well, because we are only concerned with their questions, their problems, the issues that concern them, and helping them think and reason better, and to make sounder judgments regarding the things that are problematic to them. There's no indoctrination here, there's no imposition of a set of values, which any group in the community might say, this is not our values, why are you imposing them? Robert Lipsyte: Philosophy is a kind of a musculature here. Dr. Matthew Lipman: Yeah, oh, that's a beautiful way of putting it. It provides the musculature for, for thinking effectively for for reaching conclusions from premises. And without that you have a kind of feeble, weak way of thinking. Robert Lipsyte: But you get to think that a generation of kids trained in this way, will be better doctors, better journalists. Dr. Matthew Lipman: They'll be reflective about their own practice, and that's very important. They won't just be theoreticians who never practice and they won't be practitioners who never think. They will be people who put theory and practice together. Robert Lipsyte: Yeah. Dr. Matthew Lipman: And I think that's extremely important for what we do. If we can get children to use criteria, for example, when they make judgments and be able to cite those criteria. Then when they get to be teachers, and doctors and lawyers, and whatever, they will be able to say why they took the position they did and to justify it. Robert Lipsyte: Yeah. And and this whole idea of needing people to come in medical ethicists, for example, really shows a certain bankruptcy in entire professions. Dr. Matthew Lipman: And the entire profession, because the ways in which the professions are taught and the other disciplines are taught to, it's all bricks and no mortar, there's nothing intellectual to hold the parts of the system together so that you think about the relationship, the connections. And one of the stresses of our program is thinking about relationships. Robert Lipsyte: One quick question out of left field, in terms of religion, it seems that this kind of thinking might create a rub with certain kinds of traditional religious thinking, particularly with kids who come from religious homes. Dr. Matthew Lipman: Well, it hasn't. I mean, we're in thousands of schools. And it hasn't, it's true that a few people have occasionally raised the question, is it possible that this will happen with our children, and we try to show them how respectful our approach is to minority positions. And we, as a matter of fact, stand up for the minorities and the rights of people to have their own beliefs. So when they hear that they back off.
00:16:30 833.51	Interview with Matthew Lipman concludes. Host Lipsyte thanks Lipman and announces upcoming guests, a doctor/philosopher.
00:16:42 845.78	The Eleventh Hour graphic.
00:16:44 847.82	Show returns, tilt down on Host Lipsyte sitting at small round table with two other gentlemen as The Eleventh Hour Graphic fades out.
00:17:09 872.98	Host Lipsyte introduces guests, Daniel Callahan, Philosopher/Founder of the Hastings Center and Dr. Erick Cassell an Internist and Clinical Professor at Cornell University. Robert Lipsyte : We'll be back with a philosopher and a doctor and with their dialogues on life and death. Joining me are Daniel Callahan, a philosopher who 20 years ago as a founder of the Hastings Center, a Research Institute devoted to ethical issues of medicine and biology, and Dr. Eric Caselle, an internist who specializes in terminal care. He's also a Clinical Professor of Public Health at the Cornell University Medical College. Welcome, gentlemen. And just to get a sense of how a physician and a philosopher do interact, we're going to pose a hypothetical problem. The physician has just gotten a preliminary biopsy that indicates the tumor may be malignant, I am now going to step out of the picture. It's the doctor and the doctor in the room, dealing with this problem. Daniel Callahan: I suppose the first question that anybody would be interested in is will you tell the patient the truth? You know, the great philosopher Immanuel Kant in the 18th century felt you should tell us, always tell the truth regardless of the consequences, regardless of the pain, and I'm curious, would you would you agree with that and started with that attitude in mind? Dr. Eric Cassell: Well, I think that you one should always tell the truth. and that's the not the end of the matter. That's the beginning of the matter. And when I went into practice, which is almost 30 years ago, we did not tell the truth and we we didn't think of ourselves as liars then, we would we were going towards some goal! So I think that telling the truth now is part of a goal or a change in relationship of doctor and patient. And I think it has to be seen in those terms. Daniel Callahan: What do you think patients expect of you, just in general, to a patient who has knows there's a test been taken? And what are they, what are they looking forward to you? Dr. Eric Cassell: Thank you, once again, nowadays, they're looking for the truth, but then they have doubts. I mean, who wants some doctor to come in and say, "oh, hello, Charlie. Oh, by the way, you have cancer," and boom, that's it. Now, that sentence has the truth in it. But what's much more important is the truth of the relationship. Between it's a truthful relationship towards a goal, which is Charlie's well being. Daniel Callahan: Now, is that a goal that you and the patient set together? Or is it your goal? I'm curious. Dr. Eric Cassell: I think we have to come to a get together, I think that it has always been a joint goal. But in a more authoritarian time, I assumed that I knew what was the best for you, but it was your best that I was talking about. Now I believe that, that we see the patient and the physician coming to an understanding what that goal is, what's in the patient's best behalf coming to that together. Dr. Daniel Callahan: So the kind of mutual education, you try to talk about each other, what you're up to what you want, where you're going is that should be. Dr. Eric Cassell: Certainly I mean, I know best what that disease can do, what technology can do, what medicine can do, but nobody but the patient knows what the patient thinks is in his best interest is in this instance. Dr. Daniel Callahan: So when you when you get something that's potentially very disturbing to a patient, does it matter who the patient is what you say? Or to what extent do you change what you say, depending on the patient? Or does the disease count most? Dr. Eric Cassell : I think it matters, who the patient is, what the dose of drug is, how the drug is given, how the truth is told in every word. I think it always matters. Now, nobody say that's just a hedge. Now, I mean, you me? Are you telling the truth? Or aren't you telling the truth? Yes, truth is the goal. Dr. Daniel Callahan; Are there some other occasionally patients who really say they want to hear the truth, but you have reason to think they don't want to hear the truth? I'm curious, so what do you do in those cases? Dr. Eric Cassell; I think that you try and find out whether they do or they don't want to hear the truth. I think a person has the right to hear what they want to hear. They have a right to be told in a way they want to be told. So it's your job to find out what is the way that person wants to be told. Dr. Daniel Callahan (NT-3112) 17:32 But sometimes you may want to tell them things that they may not want to hear. So you have a problem with your hands. Dr. Eric Cassell: Nobody wants to hear bad news. And particularly bad news, which in our nature, you know, we are all look for doom instantly. Nobody wants to hear bad news and I have to tell people, bad news. But they want to hear bad news in a way that fits the way they want it to be told, I think that is the case. And sometimes you have to tell people things they don't want to hear no matter how they said it ahead. Dr. Daniel Callahan : So you feel your job isn't just to protect the patient, it's somehow to bring the patient along. Do- you talked about a truthful relationship and I suppose the question is that I suppose we'd all of us would like that in our lives with anybody. But what is what does that mean in medicine, a truthful relationship? Dr. Eric Cassell : Well, I think that the basis of it is that we have this goal, which is your well-being that you should be better even if you're dying, that you should be better, there is a better death and worse death. And that in order to go towards that, I believe we have to have you as an active participant. I have to have your trust in me. And how could there be a trust relationship based in trust that wasn't basically a truthful relationship? Where you asked me something, you expected the truth. When I say relationship in truth, that's what I mean. That if you asked me a question, ultimately bottoms down, I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm going to be an honest person where you're concerned.
00:22:02 1165.43	Interview continues with Host Lipsyte, Dr. Callahan and Dr. Cassell Robert Lipsyte: Let me stop this philosophical dialogue right now and ask a question. You call it philosophy? It kind of sounds to me like humanitarian thinking that the doctor no longer the godlike creature making decisions in other people's lives? Dr. Daniel Callahan: Well, in one sense, philosophy is interested in two things, it certainly interested in certain moral truths. Is there a truth about falsehood and lying? Should we always tell the truth? That's a long standing philosophical question. The other side of the coin is how do we how do we talk about truth telling in the context of actual human relationships? This is the kind of applied side anybody can say you should always tell the truth, or sometimes it's okay to lie. The question is, what difference does it make? Depending upon the person you're dealing with a five year old, a thiry year old, an eighty year old and healthy person, a dying person, context and relationship is part of really understanding the philosophical nature of things. Robert Lipsyte : Did physicians feel threatened when when philosophers first began talking to them? Dr. Eric Cassell: Well, physicians get hives when philosophers come around. We like to believe we're a pragmatist. We have this hard science we do, I think. So, we don't like people questioning as I suspected, they even even interviewers don't like too many questions coming the other way? Robert Lipsyte: Well, that's a very good point. And let's, let's talk about that for a moment. I mean, you deal with life and death. But so to some other people. It would seem like a philosopher in a precinct house, a philosopher right here at the 11th hour, could do us all world of good. Dr. Daniel Callahan: Well, we all have to have some way of looking at life, we have to have some way of dealing with our moral conflicts. And I suppose what philosophers have traditionally done is try to bring some clarification of that try to get people in a way to step out, step out of themselves a little bit, look on what they're doing and ask "is that the right thing? What is the right thing?" And how do I go about deciding what the right thing is? Those are hard questions. But in a way you can, I suppose philosophers have believed that you can make progress with them with that over a period of time, you can make sense and get onto something. Robert Lipsyte: And what we've been talking about here today is, is being more reflective, thinking through things, stepping back, talking about our acts and their consequences. What does this have to do with all those courses which I was made to memorize Schopenhauer and Kant, and Spinoza, and Plato? Dr. Daniel Callahan: Well, of course, there's a history to this field that goes back in the West, it goes back to Plato and Aristotle. And I suppose the problem with the way the subject is often taught, it's taught as one more body of knowledge that you're supposed to memorize. And I, I tend to look at philosophy is very much trying to help us think about ourselves and think about ourselves in relationship to the world. But that means, not just memorizing facts or names or arguments, but but but constantly sort of turning it back in and saying, "What do I want to be? What do I think is right and wrong? What kind of a person? Should I be? What What is life all about?" And, and that that's a tough process. I think we'd all like to evade it simply by thinking, well, I'll read Plato, and I'll learn the answer that way. Or Plato tells us you better think much harder bet yourself, and he doesn't give you an answer. Robert Lipsyte: What about some of the hard stuff, pulling feeding tubes, when to let someone live when to let someone die? Dr. Eric Cassell: Well, I think this is a perfect example of how philosophy is move medicine forward. Ordinary technical criteria will not tell you what to do in these circumstances. And physicians have been conflicted- it is my job to keep people alive at all costs. That's the way we used to talk fifty years ago, twenty years, ten years ago? And is this the person I meant when I said at all costs. And yet, if I haven't been trained in it, there's nobody to help me think my way through it. Generally, like everybody else, I dropped back on pat answers or preconceived notions. So if there is the perfect example, if I can say that some physician "oh I understand that you don't want to do it, but would you tell me why you're doing what you're doing?" and doctors are smart people, and they're well trained, and with a little help they get the light that. In the beginning, it makes it look like it's going to be harder. And I think what Dan is trying to point out is it doesn't make it harder, it makes it easier to do your work. Robert Lipsyte : You're a better doctor, since you've become a philosopher as well. Dr. Eric Cassell: Well, there's just no question that I'm a happier doctor. Robert Lipsyte: You saw those those six year old kids learning philosophy and Dr. Eric Cassell: Right. Robert Lipsyte: What do you think of that? Dr. Eric Cassell: Why, why it was wonderful! I mean, Robert Lipsyte: Had, had that? Had you been in that class, when, when you were in the in the first grade? Do you think you would have needed Dr. Callahan? Dr. Eric Cassell: Yes. But you know, I think when I was in the first grade, and maybe you too, what somebody would have said is well, we don't have time for that now, Eric, we're learning reading. So that isn't so much that they're those kids have a natural bet the "why why why why why?" Have children can be turned into to a much more trained? "Why why why?" I was just told, like you were told, not now. And that's class says "yes, now!" So I think in that regard, it was wonderful. Robert Lipsyte: But the fact that we need philosophers to teach us things that seem so basic and human, indicates it's kind of a certain something's missing in the society. Dr. Daniel Callahan: Well, in a way, yeah. In one sense. Look, human beings never get the deepest, most difficult questions quite straight. That's right. philosophy has always had its had something to do for 2500 years and will always have thing to do. On the other hand, a society is probably in trouble if it has to reduce everything to the deepest sort of philosophical question, because it's, it no longer knows what's right and wrong anymore, that, that a society is really in trouble. And if you if it's too desperate for philosophers, I don't think philosophers can help it at that point, ironically. Robert Lipsyte: Now, the rub between philosophy and religion, because some of these things we're talking about, particularly life and death in your field, are coming in up against religious conviction. Dr. Eric Cassell: While they are but you know, but Dan is making is an important point though. Nobody really knows how to live their life well and, and yet, it's all crucially important to us in medicine, how do we view God? How do we view the sick person in this business of being taught to somehow reason our way through to what is it we believe, rather than falling back too little and too late on answers that don't really meet our needs. What philosophy and medicine anyway allows doctors and people to do is to deal with the hard things that come down in a way that's not easy, it's never is easy, but at least it's human. Robert Lipsyte: Last quick question, as as the quickly appointed philosopher of the 11th hour, what should we be thinking about? Dr. Daniel Callahan: You should be thinking about the your obligations to the public, what kind of person you want to be as somebody in journalism, what do you think the public needs to know? What, what's, what are some of the problems in our society and how do you get people to reflect more deeply upon those problems, not just telling you their problems? I know that they know it's a mess in our society in many places. The question is, what should they? What should they learn about to make a difference here? And what kind of a society ultimately do they want? That's the philosophical question and the one that I think you can raise. You have to insinuate that you have to push it in, but it's there and it's fundamental. Robert Lipsyte: So we're going to have a philosopher with a beeper in the newsrooms as well as in the emergency room. Dr. Daniel Callahan: Don't smile, not a bad idea! Robert Lipsyte: It's a good idea. Dr. Casell, Dr. Callahan, two philosophers. Thank you very, very much.
00:28:59 1582.72	Interview concludes, Host Lipsyte thanks guests, introduces the show and himself.
00:29:15 1598.76	Credits over clips from the show.
00:29:32 1616.26	Funding from Charitable organizations announced and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
00:29:44 1627.79	reel end.