Historic Films Stock Footage Archive: DS-1

01:00:16 0.33	David Susskind 00:00 Good evening, I'm David Susskind. More than 2000 Americans have a price on their head. They are mafia informants. These mock men are living under secret identities provided by the Justice Department. My guest tonight, two men who actually testified against the mafia at the risk of their lives. CBS correspondent Fred Graham and other law enforcement officials discuss how the American alias program works and how effective it is or isn't. Susskind: I'd like you to meet them now. Show opens to the panel: First, Marvin (completely masked) cooperated with the Justice Department as a witness and an undercover agent. He was responsible for the arrest of more than 120 major underworld figures. Marvin is now relocated under the government witness protection program and is wearing a mask because his new identity cannot be disclosed. Edwin Steele is Deputy Director of the New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice. Mr. Steele was responsible for wiping out the Campisi family and notorious mafia group through the testimony of a hired killer, now free and living somewhere with a new identity. James Drucker is assistant district attorney New York Nassau County. As special attorney with the Justice Department, Mr. Drucker was involved in the relocating of 12 key witnesses. Herb is also in a mask. He testified in a loan sharking case in return for which the government granted him a new identity, which must still remain secret. And finally journalist and law correspondent for CBS News based in Washington, DC. Fred Graham is the author of the book title, the Alias Program. Fred, what is the alias program? Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 01:45 David as you said, every country in the world needs witnesses to testify for the people for the prosecution in order to enforce the law. But the United States, as far as we know, is the only country on this globe that has created an alias program that has the sort of thing we see here tonight with people who have to wear masks because they testified for the public, for the prosecution. It was created secretly in the Justice Department back in 1970, by john Mitchell. And when the Nixon administration was just getting its so called "war on crime" underway. It was slipped through through Congress, with a Congress and the public were not told that they were going to go into the business of what we see here tonight, changing identities. Now today, out there, amongst the people that are watching, there are 2250 or so of these hidden witnesses. They're in all walks of life. They have identities created by the Justice Department, and a cover created by the Justice Department. And the reason really they were here tonight is because it's not working. It is not working. No, it's not working the way it's supposed to David. Two main reasons, there is a built in ah dilemma here. Because with all due respect to the gentleman who were here with us tonight, most of these people who are relocated are hardened criminals. They've done that in the past, and some of them are going to do it in the future. The Justice Department tells us now that at least 10% of them have been re-arrested for committing crimes using their government cover. And it has to be a much larger number that have committed crimes. So we've had a series of crimes committed by these people, victimizing taxpayers who pay for the program, although we don't know it. And on the other hand, because of these crimes, the Justice Department has started cutting back on the quality of the covered gifts. And so
01:04:04 227.88	David Susskind let me ask a man who has been a government witness against the mafia? Is Your Life still in danger? Marvin Mafia Informant I don't know. I what I can't see is what cover did they give us? I mean, what did they really do for us? They give you a plane ticket, and a driver's license with another name. And you ca't pick the place that you would like to go to, they pick it for you. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News Well that's not always true, though. Is it Marvin? Marvin Mafia Informant Well, it was true in my case. Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey With with all due respect to the gentleman in the mask, I think that there are a couple of things that Mr. Graham has said and this gentleman said that deserve some answer. Right, right at this point. Number one, when the program was started, it really was nothing new, except in terms of the resources that were put together for it. When Mr. Graham says it was slipped through Congress. The implication is that somehow it was illegal, improper, not done before. And then as the Nixon administration slipped it through Congress, all of a sudden something was new was created in our midst that we now have to deal with. It's not really the case. We've been relocating witnesses for many years now. Long before a witness relocation program was started. It was advocated by by prosecutors for for quite some time to deal with organized crime. And I think it's it's essential.
01:05:27 311.64	Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 05:11 Then why wasn't it done publicly? I mean, why didn't they admit to the public and Congress in 1970 when the money was voted that that's what they were gonna do? Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 05:17 Well there was testimony that was presented, as you point out in your book. There was testimony that was presented indicating what the government was trying to do. There was no attempt to conceal it. There was no need to advertise it, they didn't misrepresent it. David Susskind 05:35 Well at this point the program is in effect. You are in hiding? At this very moment. You live in some distant place? (That's correct) You have a new name? (Yes) You have a new social security number, driver's license, are your wife and children with you? (Yes) Are you safe? Do people want you dead still? Herb Mafia Informant 05:55 Not that I know. I'm not sure. There's no way to know because you really don't have any contact. You have you have no way of finding out from people in Justice who have affected the move, because they're not capable of knowing. They're a very inept group. They don't do anything (Susskind: whose in it?) The entire Marshal service that I think they consist of perhaps 2500 people in the entire service. I would say that I've come across perhaps 100 of them who might be classified as professionals, all the rest are has beens. never wasses, people who don't know the first thing about it, security. Susskind: But what would you say? Professionals, how could you say Herb How can it be professionals, they guard prisoners, and they bring prisoners from the jail into courtrooms? I mean, most of them have an IQ of about 85 or 90, or they've been in the army for 20 years. They're too young to retire in life. So they get out after a pension and they take a job for $9,000 a year.
01:07:05 408.93	James Drucker, Ass't. D.A. Nassau County I just want to going back to your original question how in God's name can the to defend a martial? So how can they know whether or not your lives are in danger? I mean, that's something that if your life is in danger, a very select group of people out wherever you were dealing before would know, but they're not going to, David Susskind 07:05 Mr. Drucker if you will testify against a mafia figure on loan sharking or narcotics or whatever the charge may be. If you put the finger on a man and you are central testimony to his conviction, aren't you as good as dead if the government doesn't do something to James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County 07:23 I don't think so i think it has to be treated on a case by case basis, it depends on how close you were to them. Whether or not you're just a fringe associate, or that you're one of their own, iftthey have to set an example. In a very, very small percentage of the cases is the witness testifying against a an organized crime figure is his life actually in danger. Now, if it's another organized crime figure doing the testifying, I think that's the highest rate of danger, if it's a victim, a businessman or something like that, it's probably the lowest rate. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 07:54 This was one of the problems David did in as I insist did happen, that the thing was slipped through Congress. Of course, it says, we didn't volunteer this but no one knew to ask, because they didn't know that's what the government was up to. Since there was never any examination of what the Justice Department was about to begin doing, there was never any real investigation as to whether people are in danger. And there is evidence now that a person who is going to be a witness is in real danger. I mean, that person has to be hidden. Once he testifies, and the the defendant is either sent away to prison or gets off, beats the beats the rap, its very unclear as to whether the person really needs to be relocated. Now what the government is doing is it's taking these people, sometimes I think they're conned into it, the government, taking them out, giving them a new life. And those people are like a loose cannon, then for years, we don't know how long then and this has been going on for seven years officially now, who knows the number of crimes that will be committed in the coming years by the people that are being squirreled away.
01:09:25 549.19	Marvin Mafia Informant But you also mentioned, in other words you said like 10%, would go back to do what they have been doing before (Graha: it's much more than that) Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 09:16 I disagree with you on that point. I let me add something right here. You know, when you have an organized crime figure, somebody who's lived his life off of organized crime, who's been a part of it. David Susskind 09:26 By that you mean the mafia? (Stier: The mafia yes). Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 09:29 Somebody who has either been a part of it as a criminal or has taken advantage of it as a loan shark victim. The chances of his going back to the same kind of activity are very slim because he honestly believes whether it may be true or not, he honestly honestly believes in most cases that he's in great danger. I agree with Mr. Grant, that the chances of, of being killed are reduced after one testifies. Unfortunately, there's only one way to find out and I know of examples, the first one relocation that I handled was a very, very primitive one. We had a witness in a major interstate hijacking case involving 30 figures, some of whom were major organized crime figures. He was a driver for one of the trucks, he decided to cooperate and was able to testify and we build a case around it. I gave him a bus ticket to get out of town, and arranged for a job in another city. Very simple relocation. I told him, under no circumstances come back to your old neighborhood. He finished testifying, he was fine where he was, he decided to come back and visit his girlfriend, and he was murdered on the streets of Newark. Why was he murdered on the streets of Newark? Was it because somebody didn't like him and wanted to set an example? David Susskind 10:43 Right, then probably, Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 10:45 very rarely do you have does does the motive of revenge in my experience, motivate organized crime figures, the traditional mafia organized crime, they're businessmen, they make business judgments. If it's in their best interest to kill somebody, if they think it's their advantage, and they can get away with it, they'll do it. Which means that the further you relocate them away from where they are, the less chance there is that they're going to make any effort to find them. But if you come back and thumb your nose at them, and you're right there and like,
01:11:31 675.03	Marvin Mafia Informant 11:15 You fellas are saying one thing, but the truth of the matter is, is if a man was a thief before, and a criminal and a bank robber, My belief is that nine out of 10 times he'll go back to doing what he's doing. But everybody has to be handled differently. If they have 2500, or 2200, relocated witnesses, everyone has got to be treated differently. Everyone because every one is a different person. Everyone is a person. Yeah. See, you fellas never went through it, you don't know, you don't know what it is one day for someone to come in and say, Hey, guy, pack your things, and your wife and your children. And that's it. And you never go back to that place again. James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County worrying every day in and day out about having their brains blown out. (Marvin: No, no, wait a minute, thats true) or you having your wife worrying about it. Herb Mafia Informant 12:01 But there are ways of doing it. There are different people involved in this thing. And I'd say that maybe it's true if a guy's a thief before he'll continue to do the same thing. That is just the point. The very fact that you're asking for the for the department come up with a professionalism that they don't have. They don't they've got as you said, people who have been retired, Army officers or or enlisted personnel, retired police who have done their 20 years or have been injured on a job and then end up in the marshal service, political hacks. David Susskind 12:32 Herb is your is your complaint, the caliber of US Marshal that took you to a new place across the country, gave you a new identity, supervised you're getting employment or whatever? Or is it the program itself? How long had you been away, hiding? Herb Mafia Informant Seven years, seven years. David Susskind 12:52 Seven years? Do you disagree with the concept of it? Has it been held?
01:13:12 776.24	Herb Mafia Informant 12:55 It has, it had. would have been a hell of a lot worse if I was in the type of situation as some of these people who have been in organized crime I wasn't. I had to make my own way. And I've done it. I've been able to get over the top again, and not because of their help, they have done absolutely nothing. I have found possibly five people who put themselves out during the whole course of time who do anything to help get ahead. Not that they wouldn't try if they knew how. But I don't think they have the ability. They don't know how they don't get Marvin Mafia Informant The average guy the average martial is a nice fellow. He's just mister everyday man. I'm talking about the people that are running the whole organization right. It seems as if it got out of hand, it developed too big for them, and it can't catch up and they're playing catch up. And you can never play catch up. (Susskind: How long have you been hiding?) five years. David Susskind And has it been a terrible time for you? Marvin Mafia Informant The first two years or three years was really bad. I mean, it was so bad that I didn't have a friend in the world. I didn't know whether I was coming or going. Everything I was promised, turned out to be an outright lie. They promised me a job. They promised me a living the way I was accustomed to living before, I never received it. They treated you like a bum. Like you were a criminal. Whether you were a criminal or not. Everybody was just a number. And that's it. They didn't care about your wife, your family or anyone. They made promises. They never kept them, just to get you out of their hair. That's all that they were interested in.
01:14:44 868.27	David Susskind Let's come right back to this point. I suppose the audience is wondering. I am, what the specific circumstances were, in your particular cases. You ran a business that you had a bank loan. It was a time when bank loans were hard to get. You had $100,000 bank loan and then 90,000 of that collapsed, the bank changed its mind. So you went to a loan shark? Herb Mafia Informant Well, I went to what I assumed was a commercial commercial lender. And later found out that they were mafia. And having been involved, (Susskind: You borrowed how much?) I ended up borrowing about $75,000. And in the long run, it costs me close to $225,000 to get out from under. David Susskind you borrowed 75,000 and they took interest? Herb Mafia Informant interest on interest, David Susskind interest on interest that amounted to 225,000. Herb Mafia Informant And I continued to pay. When I finally finally made up my mind, I was going to stop, I said, I offered them $10,000, just to go and and never knock on my door again. And they felt that they want to hold me for more. I in turn went FBI. FBI was very quick about it, they immediately moved in, and they picked them up. David Susskind Did you name a very important mafia figures? Or did you name the lower echelon? Herb Mafia Informant 15:53 Well I became aware of when FBI knew who the people were that were involved in this thing who their top man was and it turned out to be that there were some rather important figures, people that FBI wanted to catch and send away. Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey Did anybody excuse me did did anybody at that point suggest a relocation? ( Herb:Definitely not.) Nobody told you that if you continue to cooperate, you would be relocated and given a new identity and be able to live in the style to which you
01:16:37 980.78	Herb Mafia Informant 16:21 No that came about a long time after they told me that within two months, the whole case would be wrapped up. I'll be able to continue my business, which I did. And it wasn't until they kept on postponing the trial in an attempt to catch all the mucky, mucks that were involved. And it spread out over a span of 15 months rather than two. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 16:44 What did you know? then why this? Herb Mafia Informant 16:47 The Good Lord knows, I don't know why. I think they were trying to protect somebody else and they were using me as possibly a cover up to make sure that the other people that were involved in the situation would not run out. Having established cover for everybody, they felt that they'd have to cover me too. I don't really believe that there was that much danger. I think, as was mentioned before, once once the witness gets out and speaks, they don't want to get involved with anything further, they know that they're going to do their time. It seems to be a point of honor with organized crime, they want to they want to be mad, they want to do time in federal penitentiary, makes them big shots amongst their own people. Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey Sure if they had a choice, they would prefer not to. Marvin Mafia Informant I suppose it's the food is a lot better. Rather than federal time than state David Susskind 17:28 Were you ever visited by thugs who threatened to beat you up, break your legs, put your wife or children in danger? Herb Mafia Informant 17:36 No, not not in the situation where, once we were involved in the prosecution of the trial? No, definitely not. James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County I can't believe there wasn't some sort of a threat. I mean, knowing the workings of the witness program from from having been involved in it for five odd years, a witness didn't get relocated unless he was able to establish that there was a strong threat on his life. Or just that law enforcement itself without the witnesses telling it to him knew that there was some threat, I can't believe that they just said, let's pick it up and move you without having some sort of a threat Herb Mafia Informant 18:06 Frankly, frankly, I think the marshal service and the individual individuals in it are looking to prolong their own tenure in the job, because if it was determined that the witness program is not successful, or is not important or not, not a viable thing, how many of these people would stay on the jo. I mean, somebody would find another place to bury them Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 18:24 They have more requests than Herb Mafia Informant 18:26 I think they're requested from people who want to move and have haven't got the wherewithal, figured if this is the time to make it, they're going to get out, they're going to use Uncle Sam's money and Uncle Sam is backing
01:18:49 1113.1	David Susskind 18:36 Why did you move? you felt no threat to your life? Herb Mafia Informant There was one. I realized afterwards that there wasn't one. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 18:42 I've seen this in other cases in people is very similar to this. And in one case, it was a man who was never involved in any way with any kind of criminal activity. He just happened to be a witness. And the officials rushed in and said to us, why aren't you worried about your children, and she just went right up the wall at that. And they were just relocated like that the man is now, the promises have been kept. David Susskind 19:07 What is the motive for that government official, alarming that wife to the point where she went up the wall and insisted that they flee. Marvin Mafia Informant I don't believe it. I think that they had to have something otherwise they wouldn't do it. Look, I think all government agencies are good, and some are better than others. My cup of tea is the FBI. I think they're the best people in the world. They' are in this because in my particular case, I dealt with the FBI mostly. Now my deal is a little different than his. I was never in business myself in my whole life. After working for many for many different people in a particular business for about 15 years, I decided to go into business myself because this one fella kept asking me every day, he says you're doing so well here for this guy, he's making so much money. Why don't you go into business with me and at least you won't get a piece of it. You'll get all of it. So I debated And I debated and it was a one time I went into business in my whole life. And that was for one month, in one month 30 stolen cars were put through my books. I had 7500 dollars in cash invested in it. And in 30 days, I went down, I took the bus, the police came and arrested me. And nothing ever happened to this guy. ( stolen cars ) over $100,000 went through the books, I never signed a check. I never withdrew money from the bank. Because people who did buy cars from this particular lot were legitimate people who gave and issued business checks. They did not make it out to an individual, they made it out to a company. Yet this one fella was pretty well connected. And he really he really banged me out. I mean that that's the word. (Susskind: Did you finger that man?). Well l I did, but I got so upset about this. That's when I went to the government and said, I want some help. I didn't do this. And this is how it happened. And then I told him I knew other crime figures. And I knew other things that were going on. And they said, well, let's see if you can help us with it. I said, Well, I like to do it, but I want to be compensated for it. And I was put on a payroll, I was getting paid for it. Now my particular case, I made a deal with a guy to buy a half a million dollars worth of phony 10s. And I did that and the deal went down. And also it came in 10 different serial numbers. About a week after that. The deal went down, everybody got arrested. And this guy tried to cut me out of the deal, which worked out beautifully. Because I saw it on TV. David Susskind 21:38 I'm lost. After he got arrested
01:21:58 1302.1	Marvin Mafia Informant I got I had infiltrated myself into this organization of handling bogus money. So the government said, well see if you can make a buy. So I made a buy of $1,000, of phony tens. Then see if you can make a bigger buy. I spoke to the fellow and I said I have people that would take a half a million. They said okay, we set up a deal. And then the guy who was in the mafia said to me, Well, look, let me handle this. I don't trust this guy too well, I'll call you and let you know when the deal is going down. Lo and behold, two days later, the deal went down. He never called me. And he was dealing directly with a secret service man. They arrested him and I believe five other people. And it was quite a shooting on the streets in Bay Ridge of some suspects that went away. They tried to run down a police officer in a car and the Cadillac they were using was all shot up. And three days later, he called me on the phone and said, hey, who is this guy? I said, I didn't even know you made a deal with him. What I'm trying to bring out is that a week after he got out of jail, he called me up at my house. And he said to me, what happened? Who was this guy? I said, I knew this guy, I dealt with him before. I had no idea he was an agent. He says to me, Well, let me tell you something. If I go to jail, you know that I have money. And if it takes every bit of money that I have, I'll kill you. And if I can't kill you, I'll kill your wife and your kids. Three days after that, one of the fellas that had gotten arrested with him, called me up and told me to come over to his house , and I went over to his house. I called the bureau told the bureau where I was going, what I was going to do, they always knew where I was and what I was going to do. Then I went over to his house and he showed me a bill of lading of a drug called Syrenex And this is used for uh well, they had a street value about $4 million after they cut it. It's a drug use for downers. He called me up and asked me if I could possibly make a deal and use this because he needed money to pay for an attorney because he didn't want to go away. So I said, well, give me the bill of lading. But David Susskind doesn't make any sensem you're already under suspicion, Marvin Mafia Informant okay, well, what I was trying to bring out is that a week later, I made this deal in a went down. When that deal went down, my life was in jeopardy. David Susskind Whose idea was it that Marvin be scooted away to another part of the country with a new name. Marvin Mafia Informant Well, they got the threats on the street. They also got it this guy says if this deal doesn't go down, you're done. James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County I was a part of that decision. It was actually a joint decision. We sat down with Marvin, we talked about it, I think we had some of these threats were tape recorded. And it was a joint decision between the FBI agent myself and Marvin. Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey You didn't pluck Marvin out of a middle class community where he had no associations with organized crime figures. Marvin was involved with these people to some extent before that. You had some pre existing knowledge and relationship with him. He had a problem, he had a problem, there was a threat And now this was a way out. Point is, that the federal government doesn't take unsuspecting middle class people out of the community, out of the suburbs, and ship them off to various parts of the country. These are people who have serious problems Marvin Mafia Informant IDon't talk, talk, talk about one person Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News I want to talk about a person because because it's one that you've been associated with it No, these are not ordinary to for the most part, ordinary middle class people. Some of them are killers, and you relocated one of them in his name is Ira pyzdek. He admits having killed five people. And if ever there was an example, that the government doesn't always make the best deals, and with all with all respect to, you handled the case, as I understand it, this has to be one. Wasn't your fault but here is a man who has admitted five murders, he is relocated by the government. He ends up in college someplace. He's a young fellow, he testifies about other campisi's, but somehow they got such short prison terms. I don't know how that happened. Maybe you can explain it. (Stier: I can explain it.) This happens too often. One of the problems
01:26:18 1561.86	James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County 26:00 The US Marshal service Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 26:02 I know. But one of the problems, it's inherent in this alias probe, is that you have a person typically who's involved with with crime, he gets caught, and he's going to prison. The the government says to him, alright, if you can seek someone higher up, we will not only get you out of prison, but we're going to give you a new life, you're going to be a new person, we're going to wipe away your criminal record. Now, sometimes the government makes a good deal in that, sometimes they don't make a very good deal. And if ever was an example where that thing didn't come out too well for the government. It's a case of Marvin Mafia Informant 26:40 million dollars. James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County 26:41 Can I just ask one question. was Mr. Grant like? It's funny, I can't really answer. All right. I just want to ask what you would do if some organized crime figure came to you and said, for example, I've just gotten into Carlo Gambino safe I have all of his papers and documents. I'll turn it over, I'll testify my cases on him. But I want to know what you're going to do for me in the way of protection. David Susskind 27:02 Hold that answer. We'll be back.
01:27:22 1626.59	Break, blank
01:27:24 1628.37	David Suskind: All right. It's your question, Fred, someone's coming to you and said, I have all the Gambino files. Well, he's deceased. So they might have a living figure. (Fred: But that's why I use his name.) Alright, I have a file of one of the top mafia leaders in the country, it more than you need to know. You can really nail him. What would be your action with respect to that witness? Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 27:30 Well, I do it the way I understand that it's done in the rest of the world. I mean, maybe we've learned something in this country, in this kind of masked mentality that the rest of the world hasn't figured out. But I would say yes, we will protect you, we will swoop in and take you away, as is done now. We'll take you secretly far across the country to California, which is where most of them end up. And we will pay you subsistence while you get on your feet and get a job. We'll be ready to guard you at any time. But if you want to change your identity, in order to wash away your criminal past, you do it because the government is not going to have a program of deceit.
01:28:28 1692.63	Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 28:12 Yeah, but you don't want your criminal past. With a program. You can't do that. It doesn't absolve you of your sins. All it does is it cuts off to the extent that it's possible the ability of the people in the area where you've testified from trying to find you. I mean, let me let me talk about the campisi case for just a moment because I think that's a very good example of the issues that you're that you're raising. The Campis's were a notorious group of organized crime figures in New Jersey centered in the New York area, they had a reputation I think a national reputation, if any Vinnie Terisi is any source. A national reputation for violence, extremely brutal organization. Among them was a young up and coming professional killer by the name of Ira Pessent(?SP?). We, when I say we I'm talking about the time that I was both with the federal government and with the state, having had invested enormous amount of time and resources to try to catch them, put them out of business, not individually, but put the organization out of business because that's really where their strength lies, in their organizational structure. The money that they hav, the connections that they have and so forth. We were unsuccessful. Ira Pessent was sentenced to 15 20 years for armed robbery. A young fella, didn't like prison, had remembered a detective who had spent a lot of time working on him and reached out, asked to make a deal. Here's what he offered us. He said, I'll tell you all about the Campisis and all the murders that I committed with them and for them and that they committed with me if you put me on a plane, send me to Israel. And once I'm a free man, I'll tell you all about it. Obviously, nobody was going to go for that deal. As a matter of fact, we considered at that point, just simply forgetting about the whole thing. But the idea that Ira Pessent was ready to make any kind of a deal, and this is how most of them start. I think from your experience, you'd agree with me. The idea that he was ready to talk at all was something of significance. So we took him away and put him in a in another wing of a prison where we could talk to him quietly, and where our bargaining position was now strengthened because he had been taken out of state prison. I met with him. He wanted to deal at that point. And I said, No, you can't have any deal at all. Number one, if you want to negotiate, I want to know everything that you know, I want to be able to test your credibility, run you on a polygraph conduct an investigation to try to corroborate what you're saying. Secondly, I want to evaluate it, determine whether or not we can develop cases around your testimony because intelligence information, just not worth making any kind of a deal for it. We spent 14 months with Pessent on faith, that as he accepted my word that I wouldn't hurt him, wouldn't use his information against him. But with no deal, 14 months working with him and developed what I think is a was a major case, it was a major case,
01:31:30 1874.45	Marvin Mafia Informant 31:13 Yea but that's a different story. That's a guy who did something he copped out, there are plenty of people that didn't do that. (Stier: Let me finish what I'm saying) that doesn't tell you about the marshal service. Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 31:20 He, Ira, Ira Pessent, didn't have any kind of a deal until we reached a point where we were completely certain that he had given us everything. And I think that was a problem with Zalmanna(sp?) which is the fellow that you have written the book primarily about. He gave us everything, we tested it. Anywhere along the way, he understood that if it wasn't completely accurate, he was going back to state prison, and suffer the consequences of that. He stayed in solitary confinement during all of that time we worked with him. Finally, when we were satisfied that we had a case, we negotiated a deal. You got to understand that a man who's in prison in solitary confinement is a man who is the subject of enormous psychological pressure, tried to commit suicide three times came very close to it on at least one of those occasions. Ira Pessent, just like most people in solitary confinement, like a lot of people who were in the witness protection program, and who are kept in motels and so forth, was a man who was under enormous pressure. We finally reached an agreement. If Ira Pessent testified truthfully and completely at the trial of the case that we were satisfied we had, we would ask the governor to commute his sentence to reduce it by a certain number of years, I think it was about seven, seven years, it had to be reduced. And we would (Fred Grahan: You pardoned him for five burgers, didn't you? ). No, no, he wasn't pardoned for five murders. (Graham: Well he never served any time for the five murders). We had no evidence against him for those five murders. (Unknown on panel: He admitted it.). He gave us...(Unknown: He admitted it) The only way he would talk to us...
01:33:16 1980.52	Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 32:58 He admitted it,he gave us the only way he would talk anyway. There's evidence against him. Now the marshal service when it came time to relocate him, came in, and I was sitting in the room with him. And this is what they said, Mr. Pessent, we will not give you an identification, a new identity that will permit you to go out and commit crimes again. It's not going to withstand scrutiny. It's not going to withstand an investigation. If you're arrested, and your fingerprints are sent to Washington, those fingerprints are going to be flagged and Marvin Mafia Informant 33:29 He was arrested. Ira Pressent didn't need the government to get him ID. For $25 he can get a death certificate. Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 33:35 Well, isn't that the point? Hasn't Mr. Graham outlined when he said when he told us what he would do. Hasn't he outlined for us to witness relocation program
01:33:59 2023.53	Marvin Mafia Informant 33:43 No he didn't because what he said is that they whisk you away, and they give you a new ID. And they promise you that they'll back you up. They don't do anything. Let's start from the beginning. When they whisk you away, what did they promise you? (?) What does who promise you? Marvin Mafia Informant 33:59 They say that they're going to give you ID. Wait a minute, what good is ID if there's no backup? (Susskind: Is that new identification?) That's right. David Susskind 34:05 right. All right. Social Security Marvin Mafia Informant 34:07 and a driver's license Susskind: Do they give you a job? Herb Mafia Informant 34:08 They don't they give you a job and give you a social security number about James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County 34:14 See, now we're talking about what they promised and what what they do. it every question of credibility that they are supposed to, at least were supposed to, and they did promise, certain documentation birth certificate, social security, drivers license. In other words, they promise to help get jobs through contacts that they have. Marvin Mafia Informant 34:30 If you talk to them before the deal goes down James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County 34:31 what what you're saying in effect is maybe that either their their credibility was bad or that they couldn't perform on the promises, but they were supposed to do these things. David Susskind 34:39 But the credibility of the United States Marshall service making these promises is at serious issue and the promises not working
01:35:04 2088.21	James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County 34:47 I can just say, Herb Mafia Informant 34:49 They have never, never, to my knowledge come up with anything in the nature of the things that they've offered or that they promised. The best that I've ever seen them come up with for anybody was a driver's license out of Maryland and a social security card in most instances they don't even come up with, Marvin Mafia Informant 35:04 case you have a wait a minute, all Herb Mafia Informant 35:08 the grapevine is as long as as long as the whole country. We have seen marshalls from almost every state kneeling, I would say that I've seen deputies 400. And I've heard them in their, in their correspondence with us in the discussions with us always say the same thing. Everything that's promised is what is promised. It is not what is given. Susskind: Are you given a job? Informant: No David Susskind 35:30 Are you given a guaranteed monthly income? Informant: No, Herb Mafia Informant 35:33 they gave promises of that, that's all Marvin Mafia Informant 35:35 that's why I say this, every one of you got to be a fool to go on the government witness program Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 35:41 over and over, you hear this about broken promises. And I think that it Stiers has put his finger on part of the problems. They are now turning out the equivalent of two new families relocated per day. And that's a lot of paperwork, false IDs, relocation, new phony birth certificates, legal change of name. And I'm told this, David, that there now is an investigation since the publication of my book, both in the Senate Judiciary Committee and in the Justice Department. And they tell me that what they're thinking about doing is cutting back on the number of people that they relocate, they just can't handle it. Marvin Mafia Informant 36:19 I have a question. Let's assume that I'm aware, I can work the projector. And I come to you for a job. I show you my license, my social security card, and you say, where did I work before? I tell you I work for this gentleman over here. You can't call him because he doesn't know me under my right name. Who in the world is gonna give me a job?
01:36:57 2201.5	Marvin Mafia Informant 36:40 Well let me tell you, Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 36:42 in the case of Ira Pessnick, a man who.. because there's just one final note on pessnick. He's been relocated, he has a job. (Susskind: Did you get it for him?) They the marshal service, the Marshal service the gentleman that these fellows are criticizing and I'm sure that that they that the criticism has has a sound basis. You're two out of perhaps 2000 people. Marvin Mafia Informant 37:06 Yeah, well, I know plenty of others. Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 37:08 The majority aren't sitting here. But Ira Pessnick was gotten employment by the marshal service, (Informant: he should have gotten a ?). This is this is a man who had been a professional killer, who in no way could have been prosecuted, on the basis of the evidence that we had, and who, through whose help we wiped out, David Susskind 37:25 as I gather from everything that's been said tonight, you men of the law, think that the program of government witnesses being relocated, and given new identities and aided, for jobs and so forth, that it works pretty well. The men who have lived through that experience, five years, seven years, say that it's, it's wrong? That its a bunch of false promise. if you had it to do over again, would you have cooperated? Knowing this? Marvin Mafia Informant 37:54 No way, definitely not Herb Mafia Informant 37:57 if if this is if this is advertised amongst all the potential criminals that are going to possibly turn state's evidence or be witnesses to the government, if they become aware of this, I think their their whole program is going to go down the drain. They're not going to get the witnesses, Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 38:10 Neither was the government because the witness relocation program, Marvin Mafia Informant 38:14 Not because of it Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 38:14 of course that that's. Neither of you did. Herb Mafia Informant 38:18 That's just the point. We're talking about people that are going to the
01:38:38 2302.36	Marvin Mafia Informant 38:21 as there's a reason Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 38:24 that people don't come. I'd like to hear James. Jim wants to say something. Yeah, he's been in this program. What is it? James Drucker Assistant District Attorney Nassau County 38:29 no, I just want to say my views are sort of in between what you just said, I feel that the program is is an absolute necessity. And the idea is great. The problem I have is would I think it's been mal administered. I was present, for example. fortunately, I guess on one occasion for Marvin, when the promises the initial promises were made to him. I was similarly present when high officials in the US Marshal service completely devoid having made Marvin Mafia Informant 38:55 You went to Washington with me, James Drucker 38:56 then after .I said I was there when they were made, they remade the promises in my presence and broke them again. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 39:02 So what would you do? James Drucker 39:04 Asst. D.A. Nassau County, NY I just I suggest, and I think this was being implemented when I left the Justice Department that everything be reduced to writing and signed, therefore, nobody comes in late. Herb Mafia Informant 39:13 excuse me, excuse me. I haven't I haven't and they denied having written I've got I've got \ Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 39:18 But that's a lawyer's way to do things put out right. I Marvin Mafia Informant 39:21 I think what they got to do Mr. Graham they ought to take it away from the marshal service because I don't think they're equipped for it mentally.As far as money is concerned, I believe the government has enough money to handle the program. I think there is no government agency alive that can exist without a witness. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 39:35 Well I can say this, the Justice Department now in its reexamination Daviod ah there was some suggestion that it should be turned over to the FBI which would please Marvin . The FBI wants no part of this. I mean, this is trouble. And they don't want to be guards frankly. The the conversation Marvin Mafia Informant 39:52 Yeah, why don't want to be guards. What is the marshal service do after they whisk you away and give you a new identity? Well, let me tell you what, And you're not saying nothing they guard you? No sir. They just served me with a subpoena a week ago. And they didn't even know my address. Well, how did you get the subpoena? Only because I had the same phone number for five years.
01:40:30 2414.04	Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 40:14 where you were going Did you need guarding? (Witness: No). David Susskind 40:18 Do you pick the places you go to? Marvin Mafia Informant 40:20 Well no, wait a minute. (Susskind: Did you pick the place you went to). No, sir. I didn't want to go there at all. They said they had connections there. So they gave me this guide when you come out of prison. He wanted to get me a job as a machine school operator for $2.50 an hour. Speaker 1 40:32 They promised that Marvin wanted to go to city A and said this is where I want to go. They said we have no job contacts in city A. You go to city B, if you'll agree to go there they said we we have more job connections than you can believe and you can believe we guarantee we'll have you a job there. he reluctantly after a lot of argument, he had to go back and talk to his family and everything. He said, Alright, give me city B. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 40:53 And what they do as a general matter is, there are three cities where they will not relocate witnesses. New York, Miami, Las Vegas. Too much mob there. (Witness: Yeah, there's no mob anyplace else in the world.). Most of them want to go to California. And let me tell you there are so many of them in California now, David, that they're literally bumping into each other there. Marvin Mafia Informant 41:12 I mean, I heard that they're going to organize out there. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 41:14 There are some towns in Southern California, particularly in the in the San Diego and Los Angeles areas where so many of them are gathered together that they really are the people are the local officials are wondering how can we have so many people with Italian last names from Buffalo suddenly coming to this little town? And it's a real problem. Now, in San Diego there are a series of lawsuits brought by people who have been swindled by relocated government witnesses out there. Marvin Mafia Informant 41:44 Well, if you don't give them a job Fred. You don't give them any money, and they have no way of getting a job, what do you want us to do? Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 41:52 That's not what happened. In case after case they take confirmed lifetime criminals. They send them off under government cover, and they go right back to committing the same crime. There was a man named George Elias, he was a safe cracker.
01:42:20 2523.96	Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 42:05 You having you have nothing to Marvin Mafia Informant 42:07 Oh, Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 42:08 yes, let me let me say that was a man named George Elias here in New York City. He was a Safecracker. He made a deal. In its wisdom, the Justice Department relocated him under a false name in the Palo Alto area. And they got him a government loan, and they put him into business in the lock in burglar alarm business. (Informant: It was terrific). So what did he do? So what did he do? He'd go out in the daytime, and he'd rig up the burglar alarms and he'd sneak back at night and burgle a house. Marvin Mafia Informant 42:34 Well, what about the other fellas? That's why I'm saying why the marshal service is not strong enough to handle it. Because they don't have the patience. They don't have the intelligence to sit each one down. Take a folder and say this is what we can do for this one. This is how we can apply ourselves to this one. Speaker 1 42:50 Why wouldn't you run this under the system you advocate, they would have taken him whisked him away in the still of the night, as you suggested put him out in Palo Alto, the only difference would have been he would have been still using the name George Elias, what would have stopped him from from doing the same thing there? David Susskind 43:05 This program sounds like a mess. Marvin Mafia Informant 43:07 It is, it's a terrible mess. Herb Mafia Informant 43:08 I heard there were some government witnesses that wanted to join the Teamster Union because they feel that they would have more people in their favor than the US Marshall Service.
01:43:33 2597.62	Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 43:24 One thing they are doing that it is being now considered in the Justice Department is to create a new unit. The FBI doesn't want this program. The Marshall (susskind: you don't blame them). No, oh, no, The marshals keep bungling things, you know. And so they're going to create a what they hope we'll be an elite group of marshals to handle this, and they won't do anything else. And the average Marshal who really isn't up to it won't be involved. But David and I have to say, here we have what we get ,we get a new Bureau, you know. in Washington, the way you solve problems is you create a new Bureau. Well, we've seen that fail too often. And I have to say that having seen the way they botched it so far, I can't say that the answer to all this is to create a new Bureau. Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 44:03 You say the answer is to eliminate it, David Susskind 44:04 hold it, hold it right there. 44:23. Fade out and in. Susskind: If the mafia wants you dead, is there anything that can keep you alive, including this alias program? Well, if you have fingered one of their top men, and you have done damage to the organization and its profit potential, can anything save you? Let alone this fairly inept program that we Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 44:29 Now it's inept and in in that the promises are not kept. They give promises of a new life, and they can't deliver that. They bungleit, and they can't do it. But I have to say, David, that they've done all right on the protection and as far as I've been able to find out and I've investigated it as carefully as a person can, the government keeps it secret, seven, seven of these 2250 people have been murdered. Now of the seven that I mean, seven that I know of that I found. Of the seven in every case, they did something stupid went back the way Ed mentioned, to see an old girlfriend, got involved in organized crime again. Now there is an indication that at least in one place in Newark, the mafia infiltrated the Justice Department. David Susskind 45:18 Yes, I heard that the members of the Gambino gang and the Genovese gang actually infiltrated the marshal's office in Newark, and mob members paid off deputies, favors, money, whatever, to find out where the witnesses had been transported, where they could be found and where they could be shot. True? Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 45:41 As a matter of fact, as I understand the marshal service has requested an investigation of those allegations. I know that it's appeared in the newspaper, it's uh, oh, it's, it's, of course, Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 45:54 found out that that happened? Yeah,
01:46:11 2755.5	Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 45:55 it's no, I'm not suggesting it didn't happen a lot. What I'm saying is that I know everybody here has talked about the marshal services being terribly inept, and mishandling the program. Let me let me just add one thing to our evaluation of the marshal service., This job, handling witnesses is an extremely difficult job. You have to get involved in the day to day problems of people who have many problems, not the least of which are the psychological pressures that we talked about before. When the prosecutor and the investigator walk out of the room and say, well, I'll see you tomorrow, we're going home. The Marshal has to live with these people. And they have some rather bizarre experiences with them. David Susskind 46:36 Why did no member of the marshal service agree to come on the program? We tried many of them Marvin Mafia Informant 46:44 because they're afraid. (Susskind: Afraid of what? ) Well, they're afraid. First of all, it's all bureaucracy. I mean, they're afraid of their bosses that they get fired. They may say the wrong thing. Like I mentioned before, a lot of the marshals, the average Marshal is a nice fellow not too intelligent, and otherwise he wouldn't take the job in the first place. Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 47:03 Wait a minute, there are some very intelligent deputy marshals. Everyone talking at once. Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 47:09 With all due respect to the IQ examiner. Herb Mafia Informant 47:13 Hey, maybe we can get a level varies. They probably run from seven to 10,000 depending upon Marvin Mafia Informant 47:18 Yeah, and then most of them are if they were in the army, they may get 10 $12,000 a year from the army, David, but they're the only political appointee is really in the Justice Department.
01:47:45 2848.93	Herb Mafia Informant 47:26 In the Marshall Service is one of 92 in the judicial districts. The the rest of the people involved are deputy marshals those who serve under him. Now he took over the marshal, he's generally a political appointee. He's not involved in the actual field work. He's supervisors an office. The deputies themselves are as Marvin described, people who come out of one place or another. Some of them are civil servants of note. They put their time into the service and they do what they can do, transport witnesses to and from courthouses or to or from jails, prisons. When they handle witnesses, you're talking about a completely different. It's a psychological situation, different than what anybody else has been able to do. The point is they haven't set a program up where these people can operate within certain boundaries. They don't have a an idea of what to do. And certainly they're not trained psychologically. The Marshal service is strictly a police organization. its the oldest Police Organization. David Susskind 48:22 Is the marshal ever deprecating toward you for the fact that you were a squealer? Marvin Mafia Informant 48:28 Yeah, no, I have found that they think when you're a government witness, then they feel that you're a lowlife. a jerk. Yes, agree. agree with that. That's how I feel. Now i'm talking not about the average Mr. Marshall. I'm talking about the marshal service, the ones that are assistant directors or directors of a particular area Edwin Steer Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 48:48 What about the ones who work with you, though on a day to day basis? Speaker 1 48:52 I think a distinction should be drawn. They're not responsible for getting the documents and creation of the creation of the problems that have plagued Marvin Mafia Informant 49:03 I had to go and testify from one state to another, and the marshal service were aware of it. They served me with a subpoena to go and testify. The Marshal came to my home, where I was supposed to be relocated under a new name, picked me up, went to the airport with me, got on the plane, got off the plane, went to court got about 27 to 28 hours overtime out of it. And he said to me himself, he says, you know, come to think of it. Why did I have to go with you? If you couldn't leave your own house and get on a plane and go to an area where you have to be I could see me picking you up at the airport where you were going to testify, then you're not safe where you are. Now this was a marshal telling me that and that's what I'm trying to bring out. The average day Mr. Marshall is fine. It's these other people nobody everybody's afraid to take to say yes, I can do this or I can do that, I'll have to check into it, I'll have to do this, I'll have to do that. They never get back to you. They don't care, because they think you're just as bad as the guy that got convicted.
01:50:25 3008.7	David Susskind 50:08 Can we say that the alias program isn't working for the more fundamental reason that the big chiefs of the mafia are pretty much at liberty and functioning? I mean, in other words, is not one of the major condemnations the fact that the mafia is not being beaten, it is being successful. When when one of them leaves this mortal coil, he does so with a heart attack. He does so because another one of his friends have decided that he should go and go violently These men haven't really crushed the mafia. And the alias program hasn't succeeded in denting it. Marvin Mafia Informant 50:52 Yes, they do. They, they you could break a leg of someone have a strong and then the association. It takes a while for it to heal. he's a he's a little afraid maybe the next time to make a move that in that direction. And they may slow down a little, but he may assign his his work over to somebody else. Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 51:13 I mean, that's what happens. And the government now says that it has been able to get about 3000 convictions through the ABS program by using witnesses and promising them new identities. But aren't they secondary? That's right. And and when they're not, let me tell you what they find David, it's very discouraging. In some organized crime, so called families, they're highly structured and organized like a corporation. And they find that sometimes they'll knock off the top man. And as a matter of fact, he was getting a little old anyway, you know, they don't have compulsory retirement at age 65 in the mafia. He was getting a little old he wouldn't quit. The underlings were just as happy to see him go away, younger man moved up in the and the organization is stronger.
01:52:11 3115.23	David Susskind 51:55 The loan sharking operation that robbed this man of his business with exorbitant rates. He finally testified he had to be relocated seven years of his life shut to hell. Now bitter. Was itt worth it. They're still known sharking. Instead of your tavern, your restaurant, a whole bunch of your friends are being held up with ah terrible interest rates. Herb Mafia Informant 52:21 There's evidently many headed Hydra here that you cut one off, there's another one to come right back in. They're not getting to the top people. They haven't ever gotten to any of the top people. It's a rarity. And it isn't the witness program that gets the top people down. It's just definite police work when they're able to get some one person. But it isn't this program that's doing it. Marvin Mafia Informant 52:42 how bad would this government they if they didn't have anyone to testify in a case? I mean, would they make any arrests? Would they make any that would stick? Almost everything would be entrapment? Fred Graham: Well, this country got through 190 years without an alias program before they created this thing seven years ago. Witness Well that's true. Susskind But you think this program isn't worth its candles Fred Graham Law Correspondent CBS News 53:01 I think that it is wrong morally, and a mistake legally, to have a government agency dedicated solely to lying and deceit, Edwin Stier Deputy Director Criminal Justice New Jersey 53:12 but it isn't dedicated solely to lying and deceit. I mean, let's put it in some context. Number one, the only successful really successful technique to prosecute organized crime cases is to get somebody who's on the inside, either as a victim of some high level figure or as a participant, preferably a participant and build a case around his testimony. That necessarily means finding somebody who's in trouble for some reason, convincing him to testify, and then perhaps relocating him. The amount of deception that's involved in the relocation is minimal, as you criticize in the book, suggestion is that that they really don't do enough to provide an identity that that's foolproof. They stop at a point, so that if the individual is relocated, goes out and commits a crime, his fingerprints are going to be flagged, he's not going to be protected by the program, he's on his own. There are limitations to what you can do when you've been relocated. And those limitations act as something of a restraint on the people who've been relocated. That's why I think only 10% of the criminals who have been relocated, have gone back to committing crimes.
01:54:32 3256.24	Marvin Mafia Informant 54:15 but they can start that way. They can start with a fellow by doing the right thing with him right from the start. Like I said, each case differently. Now they should have a program that if this fella goes back to a life of crime, then he should suffer the consequences. They do that now. And that's it like catchy but what James Drucker 54:34 they really offer no constructive alternative to it. Like what you offer is to in effect, say to someone like Joe valachi, Mr. valachi, we're gonna move you out to California, give you some money for a while and everything but we're not going to change your name or do anything to help you out. You might as well do nothing, because Joe valachi isn't going to last six weeks out in California under the name of Joseph Valachi. YWe either do nothing. I think it would be very Marvin Mafia Informant 55:02 How would Mr. Valachi get a job ? Drucker 55:05 You said yourself that the two people who didn't survive were the ones who went back and made themselves known. David Susskind 55:11 We're out of time. One, the alias program as now constituted is not successful. It has many flaws and fails in many instances. The people they relocate revert to a life of crime. (Mafia Informant: Very few though), and or the people that they have fingered and sent to jail were secondary mafia figures and didn't really get at the organization. Right? Herb Mafia Informant 55:33 No, but one thing is only related to the other, the fact that there's a witness program doesn't determine who the police powers are going to capture. Whether you have the alias the alias program or not, you're still going to go after the best you can in the mafia. David Susskind 55:48 Last question. You've lived the life of a hidden witness that's relocated to probably California or somewhere that's where they always seem to be. I always suspected California. But would you do it again? Would you cooperate? would you change your identity? Would you move your family? Would you believe the promises of the Justice Department and the US Marshals? , Marvin Mafia Informant 56:09 Well that means if I knew now what what I tried for, No way. Mafia Informer Absolutely not, unless the program is set up in a completely different manner under another type of professional that has nothing to do with police work. Uh somebody who is involved in psychotherapy, somebody who knows what , not only what the law is, but what the mind is all about. What the individuals need in the way of recuperative powers so that he can get back on his feet, being criminal or not. Were it not handled that way, i'd have abolutely noththing to do with it. Mafia informer You take a fellow 35 years old with no money. What do you want him to do? He has no education maybe, or maybe he had a life of crime before. What do you want him to do? Go back to a life of crime? Susskind Your answer today to the request, cooperate with us and we'll relocate you, your answer is the hell with it get yourself somebody else? Mafia Informer That's right. Susskind: Gentlemen i want to thank you very much for being here and participating in this discussion. End.
01:57:32 3435.94	End reel.

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