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Grants for the program by charitable organizations by announcer and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.

Robert Lipsyte welcomes viewers to the show and introduces himself.

Quick montage of the splashy abstract artwork by the Kids of Survival.

Close up large abstract - designed by The Kids of Survival, abstract piece over newspaper print.

Wide shot, huge gold colored abstract example of the artwork made by the Kids of Survival

Students are seen at work in art studio

Tim Rollins inside the art studio sitting at desk with stacks of books and papers speaking with unseen unknown interviewer. Teens are seen in bkgd. Rollins speaks of the great artistic talent of these teens.

Teen takes over painting on canvas, they work together.

Close up on Spanish American male student at work painting, Rollins looking on

Rollins reaching up painting on canvas hanging high over a row of windows in studio

Herb Walcoe, School Psychologist talking with unseen interviewer about the severe learning disabilities and dyslexia of the art students.

Teen artist, Carlos Rivera, speaking with unseen interviewer about his learning disability.

Lipsyte narrates about their most recent success. New York Newday Cover story "The Art of Survival" with photos of the teen artists on the cover.

Shots of the artwork in the book America. Most of the works are by the K.O.S.

Rollins, speaking from the art studio answers the question, the works are important in realizing the American dream because if you live in the South Bronx, that's one place the dream is not been realized for many people, but there is hope that maybe American can come around

Tim Rollins ansers the question, "We're fine"...

Back in the studio with Host Robert Lipsyte he introduces his guests: Richard Feigen, Art Deaer and Former Stock Broker; Michael Klein, Artist Agent; Eleanor Heartney, Art Critic.

INTERVIEW:

Eleanor Heartney 9:36
What I think is interesting is the way in which Rollins is taking a group of kids who would really have no access to the larger economic system and giving them access through art. He's transforming lives and he's doing some real basic work in the world that aren't usually isn't able to do.

Robert Lipsyte 9:55
Now, in a sense, you could be saying that this is social work, not hard. What's your feeling? Michael?

Michael Klein 10:01
Well, I think that there it is, it is, in a way social work, it might have some more personal structure, let's say something like the WPA in the 30s, and 40s, where you were trying to get people working and active again, instead of dealing with their environment or dealing with a city that they were living in. It's admirable that he is working there. And that he does have a chance to sort of give these kids an opportunity to do things that they otherwise wouldn't have the chance to do.

Robert Lipsyte 10:26
As a here a big but coming on.

Michael Klein 10:28
Well, the big but is then is that the art world I think, is feeling terribly guilty about the last wave of kids who were involved, particularly with graffiti art, the beginning of the 80s. And I think many people have already forgotten there were lots of kids who were painting subways, and then they were painting canvases, and they were getting fairly decent prices for them. And they are now gone. On I think the art world feels a bit guilty that these people were just used and then forgotten about. And I think Tim is is taking care to make sure that there's some real substantial structure around this work. Whether it's hot or not, I don't know.

Robert Lipsyte 11:03
Do you like to work?

Michael Klein 11:04
Um, yeah, I think it's very nice looking work. It doesn't have for me a great deal of depth. It's, it's illustrational in a way. And but we'll see where it goes.

Robert Lipsyte 11:14
But it's hot in the sense that is getting a lot of attention is getting good reviews, and people are buying it for larger amounts of money that one would have thought,

Michael Klein 11:22
Well, I think it's hot. Because if you put I mean, you give any young artists an opportunity to show at the DIA foundation gives them great wide open spaces, you can make anything look really fantastic. And that turns on a collecting public, they want to know DIA is looking for the sort of new, the innovative. And so it does become a kind of staging ground for them

Robert Lipsyte 11:40
Mr Feigin, you're a bit of a removed because you're several centuries behind this discussion in the work that you've been celebrated for. But do you think that's true that if you give any artists enough attention, and that kind of setting that you can sell them?

Richard Feigen 11:58
Well, first of all, I think what makes something hotter, if it's hot is kind of irrelevant to the creative process. It's another thing, we're talking about a business of art. I think you can do it, I think it has to be shown in the right place, and accepted by the right people in this little cog ray that makes our hot. I think what Tim Rollins is talking about here is is important. He says it's important and as important for very specific reasons. I saw the show at DIA. And I'm excited by what he's doing. I have a dyslexic son, who wants to be an artist, and has talent, and dyslexia, and artistic talent happens to go together for very particular reasons. I'm not an expert on dyslexia, but I've learned a little about it. And that part of the brain which is affected by it is just that part of the brain that makes this kind of creativity was stimulated. And so I I think what he's doing is very important, because he's developing human resources, which I think is one of the most important things we can do. Not only are these boys dyslexic, or girl, girls are very seldom dyslexic as compared to boys, I think the ratio is five to one. It's hereditary, doesn't matter whether it comes from the South Bronx that you come from the Upper East Side. But I think the fact that he may discover here, a really important talent somewhere, give it a chance. I think that's exciting.

Robert Lipsyte 13:29
Would you as a dealer, sell such art?

Richard Feigen 13:33
Yes, as a dealer, I would sell it and I do handle contemporary art. Mostly. That's not what one gets publicized for a certain period of time. But we I'm committed to the fact that we haven't seen the greatest, great last great artists, yet they're still to be born. So I'm not only interested in the past,

Robert Lipsyte 13:51
In a sense though. So I mean, we are talking about something that is more, if I may more important than art, perhaps salvaging people's lives, opening up new areas to people who who need that conduit into the world. So why are we why are we calling it art in this way?

Eleanor Heartney 13:54
Well, I think that you're coming out of a very narrow definition of what art is, namely that art is an object. And what Tim Rollins is coming out of as a definition of art as a process. And I think that what he's doing is very important as a process I think that the works for him are almost secondary, they're a means to make the process continue the sale of the work makes it possible for the his workshops and his work with the kids to continue and to give them the kind of access and education and training and confidence in our system that otherwise I think would be completely impossible for them.

Robert Lipsyte 14:56
Eleanor not only am I coming out of a narrow definitely So far, but a kind of fearful one, in the sense that we we've all been, you know, battered by, you know, the flavor of the week or what's hot, what's not, you know, snoball appears somewhere on a cover herring, some other artist who is certainly in a way, inventing himself as he goes along. So I have a little weariness about something that looks good. Do you think

Michael Klein 15:34
The art world is constantly inventing itself needs to invent itself artists are always inventing themselves. I mean, they sort of introduced themselves create some mythology is use began about the tradition of the myth, you have to create a nurse you have to you are trying to separate yourself out from the crowd. And I think that that is that that's the sort of nature of the of the beast. My My impression of Tim Rollins in the kids is that I would, I would hope that this would then create a larger dynamic that there would be more Tim Rollins, there'd be more kids involved. And that maybe the DIA project, the DIA show would be an impetus for other museums or other institutions to take on that kind of community, if you want to call it involvement with kids, whether they're dyslexic, or just introducing art to them. The the thing that I get very, very scared about is, of course, this issue of hot and money, and the exploitation they're in, and what are you actually buying? I mean, you're talking about the process, you're supporting this great activity. But in five years, you're going to look back on these canvases and think well, are these things that I really enjoy living with? Or was it just this kind of news item of the moment? And that's, that's sort of dangerous. And and when it starts to get into the area of high prices, which I've been told about, although I don't know specifically about then I get a little shock

INSERT CONTINUES

Michael Klein 15:34
The art world is constantly inventing itself needs to invent itself artists are always inventing themselves. I mean, they sort of introduced themselves create some mythology is use began about the tradition of the myth, you have to create a nurse you have to you are trying to separate yourself out from the crowd. And I think that that is that that's the sort of nature of the of the beast. My My impression of Tim Rollins in the kids is that I would, I would hope that this would then create a larger dynamic that there would be more Tim Rollins, there'd be more kids involved. And that maybe the DIA project, the DIA show would be an impetus for other museums or other institutions to take on that kind of community, if you want to call it involvement with kids, whether they're dyslexic, or just introducing art to them. The the thing that I get very, very scared about is, of course, this issue of hot and money, and the exploitation they're in, and what are you actually buying? I mean, you're talking about the process, you're supporting this great activity. But in five years, you're going to look back on these canvases and think well, are these things that I really enjoy living with? Or was it just this kind of news item of the moment? And that's, that's sort of dangerous. And and when it starts to get into the area of high prices, which I've been told about, although I don't know specifically about then I get a little shock

Robert Lipsyte 16:55
Well, we all do. I mean, it's hard not to be suspect of all our deals and prices these days, especially in the case of Van Gogh's irises, it was recently revealed that Sotheby's had lent half the $53.9 million purchase price to the man who bought it at auction. That seems kind of scary and scandalous in the fact that everything is being manipulated, certainly. The prices maybe even in the sense our emotions.

Richard Feigen 17:25
Well Bob, let me just say one other one fear I have on the connection with the Tim Rollins and KOS. I'm worried only that the trend goes will pick up this project adopted, and then crush the dreams of some potential Leonardo da Vinci who may be amongst these kids because Leonardo was dyslexic. And there may be one up there in the South Bronx. And what I don't want to see is see these prices go crazy. And all of a sudden see what happened to me. shujaa Michel Basquiat happened to one of these kids and has his dreams crushed, because the trend does decide they don't want to, and they decide they're going to dump all 40 of them or whatever they bought. Now, as far as the iris is concerned, I'm worried about rigging markets in any field. I don't know what happened there. But now we learned that half the money was lent the question in a lot of people's minds. And we've had calls from a number of our clients in the last couple of weeks and some just public knowledge. That became public knowledge. But when on people are wondering what Alan Bond did on that picture, had he not been offered the financing. And if he hadn't bid on it, where would the under underbidder have stopped? And what would the painting have sold for? Would it have been 30 million, 31 million or 53 million? We don't know. And on that sale was predicated, apparently, the sales of the Museum of Modern Art have another bank of the postmaster Roulin for 45 million, and did the person who bought the yellow Picasso at I believe 48 million wasn't thinking about the $54 million precedent before him. How much of the structure was the Getty thinking that the Pontormo is a greater picture than the irises and the old picassso and therefore 36 million was cheap. How much of the market in this heady range of middle eight figure Pictures has been predicated upon a sale about which a number of people now have some misgivings. So I'm a little worried about credit in that market being extended in the supply of money being inflated, just like I am in any market via automobiles, consumer products or anything else? I think there's too much credit in the world. I think it's unhealthy. Because if you if you inject that credit, and then it's withdrawn, well, you end up with with disillusionment and doubt, and all kinds of uncertainties.

Robert Lipsyte 19:51
Well, this is the this is the world that the kids have survived, we're going to have to survive in. Can they?

Eleanor Heartney 19:56
Well, I think, as I understand the way Tim has set it up, at least for the time time being, he's hoping to avoid some of those problems. He set up sort of scholarship funds for the kids, they aren't given all of the money right away, the money goes back into the project. They aren't turned into superstars. Of course, the horrible example that we all think about is Jean Michel Basquiat, who showed such promise early in his career and was taken up and was on the cover of The New York Times Magazine and died a few years later of a drug overdose. I think that one of the things that Rollins is trying to do and creating a kind of community of collaboration is to instill some values in these students of his so that they won't be perhaps a susceptible to the hype,

Robert Lipsyte 20:42
Michael, some of these graffiti artists that would they destroyed you feel?

Michael Klein 20:47
I think they were I think that there was some talent there. And I think that I mean, names don't come to mind. But I remember seeing shows

Robert Lipsyte 20:52
Do you think the same thing could happen. I mean, are you nervous about?

Michael Klein 20:55
Yeah I think that I think when it gets out of the I mean, it's a small, they're taking care of that small group. But I think Mr. Feigen is talking about a much larger world where they the work enters the marketplace, and no one has the control and suddenly the prices are the prices are being demanded and it causes then perhaps they produce more work more than they want to you start, you know, success can also destroy us. We've seen this with Basquiat

Robert Lipsyte 21:20
We'll see if we survived Michael Klein, Eleanor Heartney, Richard Feigen thank you so very much.

Hand written letter on hot pink paper scrolling up is read out lout by unseen woman: Dearest Art Collector, It has come to our attention that your collection, like most, does not contain enough art by women. We know that you feel terrible about this and will rectify the situation immediately. All our love Guerrilla Girls.

Next poster reads: Q. How many works by women artists were in the Andy Warhol and Tremaine auctions at Southeby's? A. a big 0, zero.
Guerrilla Girls

Pan across large yellow poster with photo of naked woman with a giant guerilla head reads: " - Do women have to be naked to get into the Met Museum? Less than 5% of the artists in the Modern Art Sections are women, but 85% of the nudes are females". "Guerrilla Girls" written at bottom of poster

Pan from bottom up on sexy woman posed in tight skirt and sexy top, hands on hips, with a big Guerrilla head

INTERVIEW:
Guerrilla Girl 1
We're wearing masks to protect our identities to keep the issues that we represent pure. And also to play a little bit with the hype of the art world.

Robert Lipsyte
What are the issues?

Guerrilla Girl 1
The issues are that things have really gotten worse for women over the last 10 years. Everyone thinks that feminine feminism has somehow is a state that's been achieved. And all of our statistics have found that things have gotten worse, especially since 1980.

Robert Lipsyte
What do you want, have more women hung in the Whitney or

Guerrilla Girl 2
that'll be a start.

Robert Lipsyte
And that'll be a start.

Guerrilla Girl 2
But basically, we'd like to change the concept of what a genius is. And that to change it from being an angry white male with sexual prowess to a female or black is very difficult. There's a lot of money invested in protecting the notion that here's the next white boy that we can put on the cover of art news. It's very hard to get them to change what that photograph is going to look like.

Robert Lipsyte
But I mean, everything that we we've we've sensed is that that the art world is so sensitive, its market is so sensitive to trends, what's hot, what's fashionable? Why are they hung into, you know, this idea of the white male artist?

Guerrilla Girl 1
Well, if you look at who really buys paintings, and that is really the tastemakers not people who go to museums, or tastemakers or people who will buy paintings. And if you look at them, they're all very similar. They're all white male entrepreneurs. And it would only make sense that they would purchase work that in some ways flatters their own interests, their own values.

Robert Lipsyte
Why do you want to be part of this world?

Guerrilla Girl 2
For me, it's personal survival. It's very hard to keep doing art, and not get any recognition and not get any funding to do it. And I think most artists don't really see themselves as wanting to enter the world of maybe a Richard Ferien. But what they want are the resources to be able to continue doing their work. Also, in any other industry. You wouldn't ask me why do I want to enter this world to get a law degree you want to become partner or you want to become a federal judge? You've entered any other profession. You just don't want barriers to be there. I want to be able to make the choices, not have other people make the choices for me.

Robert Lipsyte
Yeah, in the sense though we're not talking about legislation or anything. We're talking about changing the attitudes of what you've characterized as rich, white men.

Guerrilla Girl 1
Well, I think you have to realize that this is a civil rights movement. civil rights struggle and civil rights were never gifts given by the powerful, they were always things that had to be struggled and fought for if you ask any black involved in the Civil Rights Movement, that those rights were not given them, they fought for them. So in a way, that's what we're interested, we think that all people have the right to express themselves. And I have the right to make a living from that.

Robert Lipsyte
If your masks came off, would that lower the price of your work? Now? Would that be a financial problem to you in this world?

Guerrilla Girl 1
You mean, my personal work or your personal work? I mean, if you ask Michael Klein that we really aren't concerned with that, yeah.

Robert Lipsyte
You are wearing a mask? Someone new or someone whom you were really good with? Would that affect your price your survival as an artist?

Guerrilla Girl 1
Interesting question?

Interview concludes. Host Lipsyte asks viewers to send questions and opinions to the weekly forum.

Lipsyte announces the show and introduces himself. Show end.

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