19731970S TELEVISION SHOWS
"I WAS A KILLER FOR THE MAFIA"
CONFESSIONS OF A HIT MAN MAX "JOEY" KURSCHNER
(HF-YTV)
CONFESSIONS OF A HIT MAN MAX "JOEY" KURSCHNER
(HF-YTV)
This reel is part of one of our Specialty Collections. Online viewing or downloads of low-res versions for offline viewing will be available for only more day, though. Online viewing or downloads of low-res versions for offline viewing has now expired, though, and cannot be viewed online. "Pro" account holders can download a low-res version for offline viewing.
Sign up for a "Pro" account to download this footage.
This reel is currently not available for online viewing.
Sorry, this video is temporarily unavailable for online viewing or download. Please try again later.
Restricted Material
Access to this reel with audio is restricted. It will be available for only more day.
Access to this reel with audio has expired.
| 01:00:18 0.5 |
FULL LENGTH 1973 INTERVIEW WITH MAFIA HIT MAN MAX "JOEY" KURSCHNER WHO HIMSELF WAS MURDERED BY THE MOB IN 1982:
David Susskind Good evening, I'm David Susskind. And several years ago, we had a guest on the show who was a killer for the mafia. His name was Joey. He confessed to having killed 38 men. They've been so many requests to repeat that interview that we've decided to do it. So here it is a conversation with Joey, a killer for the mafia and will begin after this pause. |
| 01:00:44 26.99 |
CUT TO BREAK
|
| 01:00:47 29.78 |
INTERVIEW BEGINS:
David Susskind My guest is a man named Joey. He, by his own admission has murdered 38 people. He was a paid killer, a hitman for the mafia. Joey is the author of the recently published book killer, in which he describes his career and the world of organized crime. You've killed 38 people. 'Joey' Yes, sir. David Susskind How old were you the first time you killed somebody. How old were you? 'Joey' I was 16 The first time I had somebody in the head. David Susskind How did that come to pass? 'Joey' I was working numbers as a kid and I was a big tough kid and I became a controller very shortly. And one day a guy comes to me said I got a job for you. So what is it? He said I want you hit somebody in the head I looked at I said what do you want to know he says by tonight? This is how I see me tonight. So I thought it over you know if I turn this guy down all my life will be scuffling have a local hospital make $1 somehow illegal. If I take the job, I'm somebody if I do it right. So I decided to take it and in them days I was paid what I consider a fortune. And if they did the job guys who used to see me you know just sort of fluff me off. No, like like it's just another kid walking around. Suddenly what I came away, you know, to take that out All of sudden I had new friends I didn't even know I had David Susskind how much we paid 'Joey' $5,000 David Susskind At 16. 'Joey' That's correct. David Susskind How did you kill him? 'Joey' I walked up behind them and I shot him in the back of the head. David Susskind Why did you kill? 'Joey' Because I was paid? David Susskind Do you know what he did? 'Joey' I didn't ask was one of my business David Susskind who hired you? Not the name of the man? I mean, was it an organization 'Joey' It was part of an organization? Yes. David Susskind Did they tell you why he was? You didn't ask. 'Joey' was none of my business. You only supposed to ask you they offer you a job. You take the job you don't you don't take the job you don't do and it's your business to know unless it happens to be somebody where as you go by you get a reputation What does and they're gonna they're gonna knock somebody down it's somebody you happen to know you know, they'll tell you you know him and they'll give you the option or if by description of what they tell you you figure you know the person you say well, I ain't too interested David Susskind how did you feel when you killed somebody? The first time first time? 'Joey' I don't know I guess I was a little shook but after that it didn't bother me David Susskind Did your conscience hurt? Could you sleep? 'Joey' Yeah, I didn't sleep too good the first night I tossed and turned for a while make sure that I got rid of the gun and everything I'll make sure everything I went always thinking my mind you know make sure I did it all right. Then after that, and then I was pretty sure the next day is when no cops came up for me. I was everything was alright. David Susskind Did you ever wonder about that person had a wife or children 'Joey' I don't worry about any of the same as if somebody comes up to me. He ain't gonna worry about me. David Susskind What was your background Joe were you an orphan? 'Joey' I was in an orphanage as a kid. David Susskind When did you lose your mother and father? 'Joey' Well they died when I was pretty young. David Susskind You went to a lot of orphanages 'Joey' Well I went to a lot of foster homes and then we finally got back together again when my oh man came out of the can. David Susskind your father was a criminal 'Joey' you call him a criminal to me he was my old man. David Susskind What did he do? Why did they put him in jail? 'Joey' He killed three guys he was he had a numbers back in north Bronx and Dutch Hill sent some guys up there one day declare himself in as a partner my old male put him to sleep David Susskind and he was tried and found guilty 'Joey' Yeah he was convicted of manslaughter David Susskind Could there have been any family legacy of killing in other words your father did it so why not? 'Joey' No. My old man was the type of guy when he had it, we had it. He didn't have it, we didn't have it you know, it's just one of those things. He did the best he could with what he had. He tried. That's all I can ask for David Susskind the other men you've killed. You've done that on contract from the mob. 'Joey' I've done exactly. 35 on contract and three for revenge. David Susskind Three for revenge. 'Joey' That's correct. David Susskind Tell us about three from revenge 'Joey' well i I got married in 1958 David Susskind How old were you? 'Joey' I was 26 and America I don't know first person I ever met, whoever gave me anything without me having to take it. And I was hired to do a job somebody does not know the door hitting. But my payoff was supposed to be 40,000 only the product party thought it would be cheaper to kill me. Only when he went to my house, I was in Reno I didn't know nothing about it. I got to my house and my wife was dead. She was pregnant. One of the last was my wife said she didn't know what she was. She didn't.And they kicked her in the stomach. She hemoraged she was died. Then they caught me caught up to me. And they broke my neck for 15 months in a hospital. But they made one mistake. They didn't break it big enough. When I come out of the hospital, I went hunting. And there was nothing in this world that was gonna stop me from finding them people. And I found them. And I wish them all died nice and slow. You ever shoot anybody with a long ways. 22 Shoot them in the legs so they can move. shoot them in the shoulders, arms and then the ribcage is really bleed nice. And they hurt a lot. They use flat flat bullets, flathead bullets, what you do is you take a blade you shave part of the bullet off to make a flat. So when it goes in it scrambles and they just kept reloading and kept shooting. And I'll tell you something I never felt so good and all my life. David Susskind Three men 'Joey' There was three. David Susskind And all the other killings had no personal motive 'Joey' none what so ever David Susskind You never knew any of the men. 'Joey' I know some of them. But that didn't make it personal David Susskind How is the murder arranged in the organization? 'Joey' Well gently so I get a message that so and so would like to meet me or talk to me and I call a telephone that I'll have a number for. And I call them. They say well meet me at such and such a restaurant. It might be a restaurant in East Harlem. It might be a restaurant in Midtown, I might be a restaurant down in Little Italy. might be a restaurant up in the Bronx might be a Chinese restaurant could be anywhere. David Susskind could it be Miami and Chicago and Detroit? 'Joey' No because I'll get my original contract of the city I'm living in at the moment. David Susskind All your work is contracted for New York 'Joey' as a rule. Yeah, it could be go up or go to another city. David Susskind To do the job 'Joey' Yeah. David Susskind When you show up at the restaurant? 'Joey' Yeah. David Susskind Do come with a mask. 'Joey' no David Susskind They know who you are 'Joey' They know who I am. the bosses know who I am the people I do the work for know who I am. So go in we'll sit down and we'll have dinner for general talk. You know, how's your family? How's things going? You make any money you earning? You know, things like that? You know, our sounds so fine. And then during the course of the meal the man will say, I've got a job for you. I'll say alright what is it? So and so, once such and such done. Alright, go ahead. How much is it? Well, what's it worth? So I say 20,000. Done. Before I leave the restaurant I'll have my 20,000 David Susskind Wait a minute. What's the price for murdering a man now 'Joey' today is 20 G's. , flat 20 G's 'Joey' No matter who it is 'Joey' No, if it's somebody exceptional? It's more like when they wanted to hit Joey Gallo. The price was 50 grand. I turned it down. David Susskind What didn't you do it 'Joey' Because I liked Joey Gallo. He was a good friend of mine. It doesn't matter I don't care. I don't care what any of these monkeys got to say. David Susskind Okay, they agree on the price. $20,000. Is a contract signed? 'Joey' No, your contract is when you took the money. Your contract is your word. Your word is your bond. David Susskind Your paid in advance. 'Joey' That is correct. David Susskind If the man changes his mind and doesn't want that person killed 'Joey' I keep the money. David Susskind You keep the money. 'Joey' That is correct. David Susskind Now, you then go and it's your responsibility to make sure that man dies. 'Joey' That is correct. David Susskind If you bungled the job what happened? 'Joey' I'm dead David Susskind why? You did your best 'Joey' That's not my best. David Susskind Have you ever bungled a job? 'Joey' No. David Susskind All 38 men 'Joey' they went they were dead before they hit the ground. David Susskind Now the $20,000 is cash. 'Joey' Always don't want to take a check, right? David Susskind No, I don't think you'd take a check. And I would suspect to check better be good. You're then told what about the victim? Who he is 'Joey' Who he is. where I can Find him where he lives. I was given as much information about him as as possible, then it's up to me to pick my time and place. I may I may stay on him for two or three weeks. Sometimes I can get them in two, three days. It doesn't. I don't know. But I always check it out myself. David Susskind Right? You're not all by the man who employs you why this has been done. And you never ask 'Joey' It's none my business. I mean, if it's somebody I know, I may ask him. If he wants to tell me like a couple of cases. I had guys and I know why they were going. David Susskind Do you know why most of the 35 men that you killed professionally? Do you know why they died? 'Joey' Yeah. David Susskind Why? 'Joey' There were either stupid or they were stealing from the boss and theyToo ambitious. David Susskind Those are the three crimes that must be paid, right? They're stealing from the boss. Stupid, right? Or too big for your britches, 'Joey' That's right. Makes you think to back it up, don't do it David Susskind have to pause. We'll be back in a minute. |
| 01:11:18 661.19 |
CUT TO BREAK
|
| 01:11:21 664.06 |
INTERVEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind You got the contract? You've accepted the $20,000. Now, what do you do? 'Joey' Now I take all the information that's been given to me and I read it. And then I start to check it out. I start to check out the person. If I'm told that he leaves his house at seven o'clock in the morning, I'm there at 6:15 if I'm told that he's got a girlfriend, I go and I find out if this is where the girlfriend lives, I checked, find out and I may wait around for a day or two to see if he shows up. I may follow the guy for a week. He ain't gonna know I'm there. Got no way to know because I'm not I'm not going to be on him constantly. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to pick different places where I know he should be so Jimmy's got a girlfriend. He's either gonna go Syrah to between tune for the afternoon or he's gonna go see later at night. Because between 2-4 in the afternoon his wife doesn't know what he's doing. He's gonna go late at night when he's out playing cards, whatever he's doing those two times he always got they always got so you bet your shot to go pick the guy off generally is wherever his girlfriend is. Or if he's going to go to a game like these guys, let's go to crap games, card games, whatever. You find out where the game is. And generally you game is always an out of the way place it invariably it is and you got him David Susskind out of your experience. What are your preferred places for killing people? 'Joey' My preferred places get you coming out of the girls place 'Joey' on the street David Susskind right on the street, because generally it's 2-3 in the morning and use a silencer nobody is going to hear nothing and if I don't use a silencer they are going to think it's a backfire anyway. How many people you know are going to to get out of a sound sleep? David Susskind What do you use to kill 'Joey' 38. Sometimes Sometimes 32 automatic David Susskind Where do you get the gun? 'Joey' Oh that's easy? I can Get you all the guns you want within five minutes of where we are David Susskind and after the killing you dispose of them? 'Joey' Oh yeah. Because what are the gun? They got? No weapon. No weapon. I got no charge. David Susskind A murder charge can't stand if they can't find a murder weapon. And where have you killed people in front of the girl's apartment? Gas stations. 'Joey' Gas stations. swamp land. Small Town big cities, restaurants warehouses. David Susskind You the movies show us the godfather for example. person walking into a restaurant mob man killing another? What about the crowd? What about identification? 'Joey' Well that's about the only accurate thing that I can remove on a picture. Because no with nobody in the room nobody can give you a description. It's almost impossible. Because when people hear that loud noise they hit the floor and they hit it quick and they're not going to look up to become heroes to see what you look like. They want it they're only hoping that no bullets come their direction as I describe one place where I hit a guy the people don't think 14 Different people in there not one of them come up with the same description of me David Susskind you disguise yourself in any way 'Joey' No I just walk in do the job and then walk out David Susskind Do you wear a hat 'Joey' No. What for. I make it conspicuous when you walk I walk in the joint I look like another guy we're gonna joint the guy I'm calling for he doesn't know I'm there until I'm right on top of him David Susskind Are there don'ts in killing people 'Joey' Yeah. You do not kill them and houses of worship. You do not kill them in their home front of their families. And you do not torcher them David Susskind Do you rob them? 'Joey' Nope you do not rop them David Susskind Do you torture them. 'Joey' No. David Susskind You just do 'Joey' Just do your job and get out of there. What do you do when you're not there to play games? You're not there to decide why he should die. You you were somebody already decided he's going to die. He ain't even have a chance to cross himself before you pull a trigger. David Susskind What about the pleas of men who are dying? What about their begging and they're praying? 'Joey' I don't give them enough time to even get the word please out. They see me. It's all over by the time they see me. They don't see me because I come up behind them. They never had a chance anyway. David Susskind The act of killing is so it's so savage. It's so unhuman 'Joey' Oh, is it huh? David Susskind Yes, it is. 'Joey' What's on your moral bar? David Susskind Because we've been taught that life is sacred. To respect to preserve. 'Joey' We've been taught to be honest too David Susskind No, but hold on a second. Okay, we'll get to honesty later. From the time you were little even in the foster homes I would imagine you had some kind of training about about God about mankind about being your brother's keeper about not shedding blood about helping somebody in trouble 'Joey' The way I was raised, pal, you didn't bloodshed blood. David Susskind You never believed in God. Nobody ever did a kind act for you that made you think there's something good about 'Joey' my brother's the only person that I can think of really did. I mean, people have done things for me. But my brother does something for me once I never forgot. And that's why today is not only my brother, he's also my very close friend. We'll kids and all. And we got some meat, which we didn't get to often. And I went through mine like the wind. I was hungry. And my brother say it. He took the food off his plate he put it on mine and says, Here kid, you eat it? And I never forgot. My brother could have anything I got anytime he wants it. And if there's anybody in this world, my brother don't like he just tells me. He never has. But all he has to do was tell me. There's anything he wants done. All he has to do is tell me it'll be done. David Susskind Killing has never made you sick. It's never made you wonder about your sanity. Do you think you're sane? 'Joey' Yeah. David Susskind No joy. Ever wondered about? 'Joey' No. I've had a guy I had a psychiatrist once study me doing a murder trial. He told me I was the coldest person you'd ever met. David Susskind Do you take pride in that? 'Joey' I don't know if it's pride or whatever David Susskind You like that. 'Joey' Yeah, in my business. I like it. It makes me different than other people. I am different than other people, just like you're different than other people. And you like it? David Susskind Yes, but I'm trying for a distinction for myself within the human race, not out of it? 'Joey' Well, let's put it this way. As far as distinction, I am within an organization of the human race created by people of your human race. I just happen to go into this business. That was all if this business hadn't been available, I'd of gone into something else. David Susskind But Joe, sometime in the night sometime and in sickness when you've been under the weather, have you ever thought to yourself about a life and killing and about maybe something missing in you, maybe your soul, maybe your mind, maybe you're you think you have any ethics at all, 'Joey' I have a lot of ethics. My Word is my bond. That's number one. I'm more honorable than anybody you've ever met, of course in your life. That's my ethics, if I say something, it'll be done, it'll be done. If I make a promise, I will keep it. If I tell you I will be at a certain place. I will be there. I will not break my word to you. David Susskind Let's come back to killing 'Joey' okay. David Susskind You've never ever had a moment's conscience about moments 'Joey' Its a job that's it. Just like you're sitting there doing your job. It's a job. That's what I'm paid for. David Susskind But when you do your job, that person that you do the job on will never love anybody. Never laugh never live in a moment longer. 'Joey' That's right. David Susskind You're doing unhuman things you're doing the things animals not many animals kill each other their own kind, 'Joey' okay, I'm doing what I'm paid to do. David Susskind Could you be paid? Interesting money's doing something else. 'Joey' Like what, doing push ups. David Susskind You have Shylocked you loan money at usury rates you you've hijacked cigarettes 'Joey' No I haven't didn't hijacked cigarettes, I bought a bootlegged them. I've transported narcotics and diamonds. I've been a bookmaker. I've done all these things. But the base the basis of whatever I think I have done it's been the fact because I am a hitman that is why I get these positions like quicker than a lot of other people do. David Susskind But it isn't money then you must get a rather excitement that's why my business for but there was a lot of money in your Shylock it was a lot of money in your holding up trucks with cigarettes. 'Joey' I didn't hold those two. David Susskind What do you call it? 'Joey' Bootleg want and I want to thank the city in the state of New York for helping me make all that money. Because if they didn't raise the taxes, and I couldn't have bootleged the cigarettes, and I want to take people like you who bought them. David Susskind If you could stop killing and make the money you make from killing? Would you stop it? Or is it now something you've 'Joey' Probably if I got enough money to? Yeah, why not? I'm getting tired. I'm no kid no more David Susskind we'll be back in a minute. |
| 01:21:36 1278.67 |
CUT TO BREAK
|
| 01:21:59 1302.02 |
SLATE CARD - COUNTDOWN CLOCK
|
| 01:22:09 1311.49 |
INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind Joe, it's inconceivable to me that in all the years from 16, when you killed your first man to to this moment, you haven't had a moment of doubt or a moment of maybe self hate or a moment of being appalled with yourself, and what you do at killing ever when you fell in love. 'Joey' Now when I married my wife? I seriously seriously, Jack was dead than David Susskind the first one. 'Joey' Yeah. And I seriously thought about, you know, getting out of the business or doing something David Susskind Did she know what you did? 'Joey' Yeah, she knows. She knows I'm a bum. David Susskind Does she know you're a killer? 'Joey' Well, she did know that far. You know, you don't tell them you know, you don't go out to discuss, you know how you blow a guy away. But he just I just thought I was I was doing things that was all and like I said, she'd dug me for me. And that was the end of that. And like I said, she was the first person that I've ever met in my life, or some other ones aside from my brother or anything. Who just gave me things because they wanted to. You know, I didn't have to take it. And she liked me for me. It was me. You know, I you know, and I didn't have to you know what? It was all you know, it was beautiful. I guess maybe sometimes your life you get these things I don't know. And when she died, I died. And after that, I don't care who I hit. I don't care if I live or I die even today. I got a good woman around me now. David Susskind Do you believe in anything at all? 'Joey' I believe in me. David Susskind Money 'Joey' and besides money I believe in me. I believe I can do anything David Susskind when you're out on a hit and it goes wrong, you say it never has. If you were caught and tried. 'Joey' I've been kept up and arrested and tried. David Susskind You have been 'Joey' Oh yeah. Three times David Susskind for murder. 'Joey' That's correct. David Susskind What happened? 'Joey' I was acquitted. David Susskind Three times. Why no witnesses. 'Joey' That was one of the reasons not a reason that the state couldn't put up a good enough case. David Susskind Did they ever find the weapon? 'Joey' Nope. And one time a witness got up and recanted his testimony David Susskind because pressure had been put on him? 'Joey' I don't know. David Susskind You wouldn't be surprised. 'Joey' Nothing surprises me. David Susskind If you hadn't been lucky enough to be 'Joey' I mean again David Susskind what would happen with your contract if you bungled a job? No, not bungled. You kill the man. But you were caught. You were tried. And you were sentenced to 'Joey' the party who I took the job from? would be responsible for my attorney fees would be responsible if I have a family to take care of my family while I'm in prison. David Susskind What would that entail? You go to prison, what would they be liable? for 'Joey' about maybe 150 a week, to pay the bills. David Susskind Is that part of the contract? 'Joey' Oh, yeah. David Susskind Along with the 20 thousand. 'Joey' Oh, yeah, that's the unwritten lower business. If a man goes to prison, where you're doing a job for, or does a job for you. You have to take care of take care of his people. David Susskind Do you spell it out, as you said, 'Joey' Don't have to spell it out David Susskind suppose he fails to take care of your family, 'Joey' then I have no obligation to him David Susskind you could talk 'Joey' that would be my prerogative. Yes. If I was a man, I wouldn't I'd wait until I get out and break his head. See, like some guys, they feel that they've been crossed. So right away, they start screaming bloody murder. What are you gonna do? Sir? These people a message? Hey, you want my silence? Come up with the money. You'd be surprised how quick they come up with. David Susskind So the deal is the 20,000 to kill the man. 'Joey' Right? David Susskind If anything goes wrong, all your costs, plus taking care of your wife for as long as you're in prison? 'Joey' That is correct. David Susskind And that buys your silence. 'Joey' That is correct. David Susskind If you talked in prison, and he was sending the money to your wife, what would happen to you? 'Joey' I'd be killed in prison David Susskind in prison. is that easy to do? 'Joey' So easy it's not even funny. David Susskind All right. It's a hard subject 'Joey' Do you have any idea what he always used to take a spoon and sharpen it and ram it through a guy's neck. or catch a guy out in the back of the yard? And rap him with pipe ir throw him off a pier. That's it. David Susskind When one reads about murders in prison, that's probably behind it in some way. 'Joey' Good chance of it. Unless it's unless it's a personal beef. David Susskind Now, when you were caught, how are you got to somebody identify you 'Joey' Well, I one time they come and they got me and he said that there was a warrent for my arrest for murder and I said fine. Let's go. I went in. Had a hearing. David Susskind Did you call up the the people, you know 'Joey' no, no, no, I call the lawyer call the lawyer he came down to see me. And I told him who to go see to go get the money. And he will, you know, come he may come down at the arraignment naturally they hold you with no bail, but he returned to talk when the ballpen but I told him I says you go see So and so and take care, whatever is going to happen. you got to have. And one of his fee is, they got to pay. And then after that David Susskind In a situation like this. What is the fee? 'Joey' could be I don't know, one guy not got 15,000 for defenging me. another guy was 17 and change. another guy got 25,000. And I don't care what he gets. What's the one thing you learn? You never lie to your lawyer. Like when guys like I had a lawyer one time he says to me says well, he says, Did you do it? I said yeah. He says what I'll plead a copy. Let's just take a walk you I don't need I go walk in and do the same thing myself. I want a guy's gonna walk out the door. So I got another lawyer. He said you do? Yeah. It's okay. Because you're innocent. David Susskind You give them the man the man's name have hired you. 'Joey' Right? I give the man's name who hired me? I gave him another party I give the party who originally contacted me. David Susskind Right? It's his responsibility. 'Joey' He goes to him. And then he contacts the party who hires him. You never you never reveal who the individuals who hired you. He contacts him and he gets the money for whatever he wants he gets. And from that day on while I'm because I'm held in no bail. My wife gets money every week. She may get 150 200 whatever. 'Joey' You were held in the tombs once a year 'Joey' 10 months David Susskind kept postponing the trial. 'Joey' My lawyer kept postponing David Susskind why 'Joey' well he wanted to work on certain legal maneuvers. till finally we were ready. We went in then the state said well, they weren't ready because they can find our witnesses. My lawyer made a motion says well, my clients been sitting here for ten months. we're ready to go to tiral. You're incacerating this man you're depriving him of his liberty, we're ready to go to trial. So judge gave the DA I think it was 48 hours to go get to go find the witnesses. 48 hours We came back This was on a Monday we came back in on Wednesday. He called us out of the door David Susskind were the witness still is still alive. 'Joey' I don't know. I never saw him. David Susskind Alright, that's one trial. No witnesses. What happened? The second 'Joey' second trial went before I was indicted before on the testimony of two individuals who went before grand jury and said that they saw me blow a guys away down at Fulton fish market. Who me? And then they get the testimony before a grand jury was indicted, and we went to trial. One guy couldn't remember nothing and the other guy said But now he wasn't mistaken wasn't me. So that case went out the window David Susskind Both of those witnesses surprised you 'Joey' No I think they tell the truth. David Susskind Third case, 'Joey' Third case party Why was known that I had no love for was found floating. And I was seen in the area by three people. And the state had what they call a hopefull case, they were hoping for a conviction. But they didn't get it. Because none of the three could actually say that they saw me do anything wrong. They only know that they saw me in the area. David Susskind Do you always use a 38? Do you always 'Joey' I either use a 38? Or I use a 32? David Susskind What about bodies floating in the river? What about a pirated bodies? 'Joey' I don't have nothing to do with them things. I don't play that game. I told you that David Susskind others play that game? In your line of work? 'Joey' Yeah, well, you get some people, they're a little more vicious. So you know, they're like that, you know, two things that they shouldn't do to me. You're supposed to hit a guy hit them and forget about them. David Susskind And the best way to do that is with a 38. At what range 'Joey' between three and four feet. About about the distance you and I are right now. David Susskind That's the preferred distancec 'Joey' Yeah. from right here where I am not in no way. Well, I can miss any your vital spots. David Susskind Do you have a preferred spot 'Joey' Yeah the back of the head. But if I'm looking at your the front of the head David Susskind that's a good cue for a commercial Have I ever heard one Joe, we'll be right back. |
| 01:31:53 1895.73 |
CUT TO BREAK
|
| 01:32:15 1917.51 |
SLATE CARD - COUNTDOWN CLOCK
|
| 01:32:24 1927.45 |
INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind I gather from what you say, Joe, that you only work for the mob. 'Joey' And we won't work from outside. Because an outsider can't stand up. David Susskind What do you mean by standard? 'Joey' Well you take an individual like yourself, you want somebody hitting the head, right? Are you aren't you hire somebody? David Susskind Could I hire you? 'Joey' No Because you're an outsider I can't work for you. David Susskind Is it against the rules of your organization? 'Joey' Basically, it's against the rules because we're supposed to work for you. That's number one. Number two, the cops start asking you questions. They'll turn you every Way But Loose. You cannot stand up, you will not take the pressure you'll go. And I'm going to jackpot. People I work for they can ask them all kinds of questions. They look around like the sun is shining. David Susskind You don't work for civilians because they would squeal 'Joey' yeah they would talk nothing. They would squeal. They just have no way that they can stand up. The pressure is too tough on them. Let me give you an example what I'm talking about. There's a guy doing time in the can now. You may remember the story, the guy blew his bookmaker away because he couldn't pay him. Right. He guy was one of my customers alsI says how much? he says 20,000 He went into cardiac arrest. He says what a $20,000 He says I owe this guy 20,000. I look up to you. So you could do the job yourself. Or you could find an amateur and I'll send you cigarettes and sure enough. He got himself a hooker. He got himself a bottle. I'm not a guy. And they want to hit this guy. He's doing 20 years in the can, he had to turn state's evidence on like a customer nice family and a whole bit. So what else when you play around with amateurs? David Susskind Okay, you can't be hired by a man, let's say jealous of a woman and he says 'Joey' No I don't want no part of him. He's not in my world. David Susskind You've never done that. 'Joey' No. David Susskind Have you ever been on a hit list? Anybody tried to kill you? 'Joey' Oh there have been a couple of times. I used to cut three nice holes in my stomach. My neck was busted. It was about to kill me. David Susskind How did you get out alive? 'Joey' How did I get out alive. David Susskind Why weren't you killed? Weren't they professional? S 'Joey' They were professionals they just couldn't shoot good I got your you almost don't want to go to bed? I killed 2 of the three guys. David Susskind What were you wanted for? Why did they want to kill you? 'Joey' Because I wouldn't let them hit the guy I was working for. David Susskind It's customary I remember in your book. The best way to get at 'Joey' a boss is to get through his body guards David Susskind through his body. Guys. Why is that? 'Joey' Well, let's put it this way. If assuming I'm your body guard, and I go where you go. There's a good chance My hand is always going to be on a candle within very close range. So if anybody makes a move with you, I'm going to be there to protect you. Now, if they make a move at you, and they sort of you know, and I'm looking the other way, makes life easier. David Susskind When we read of a gangster being killed as we did recently in New York, Gallo was killed. Could one presume that his friends weren't? 'Joey' I assume somebody when he left the Copa made a phone call? I would modify I would bet an awful lot of money on it. I do not believe the story that was laid down by this particular party. David Susskind When you're asked to kill a head of an organization, have you been asked to do that? 'Joey' Just on Joey? I've never gone I've never had anybody that was that big. I generally get guys that make mistakes. David Susskind That's somebody within the organization further down. 'Joey' That is correct. David Susskind Have you ever found yourself saying I know him he's a friend. 'Joey' Yeah. With Joey? David Susskind They want to Joey Gallo killed 'Joey' I went to you. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. David Susskind What kind of guy was he? 'Joey' To me he was a good guy. I liked him David Susskind why was he crazy? Joey 'Joey' was because when he got nailed on a burglary one time he cupped a plea that he was at that time so sent to a nut house for a while. That's what I call them crazy Joey. He was no crazier than you are. He had a lot of smarts up there. David Susskind But he loved violence. He was very sadistic. 'Joey' He I mean, he would do a job on a guy like he kept a lion around, you know, a lion. Yeah. When you didn't pay him the money used to say you say a lot of the lion can land on a basement on prison Street. David Susskind Wait a minute to say that. There was a live lion alive live in the basement of his house 'Joey' Do you think I'm kidding ask Jimmy Breslin David Susskind and if you were slow in paying and what you owed 'Joey' He would open up the door and the Lion would, you know, let out a little roar. You got the message that you want, you know. either that or you become part of his dinner. Vinny Teresa used to have a Parana opened up on Boston. You didn't pay him, you stuck your hand right in the water parana used to nibble away at your fingers for a few seconds. David Susskind In your book you describe the late lamented Gallo Joey Gallo, eating up and hitting until his eye fell out 'Joey' I didn't describe Joey doing that. I described the man doing it wasn't Joey. David Susskind I'm sorry. 'Joey' No. I described an incident where I went with a guy to the job and this guy did the job. And then he put his arm around me says let's go you have some Chinese food. There's no way I would say no to him. David Susskind You've worked your way through the ranks. I mean, you didn't start as a hitman you started as 'Joey' a numbers runner, right? And then from an entrepreneur became a controller. David Susskind Now your basic job within the mob is hitting 'Joey' my basic job within the mob is earning. David Susskind Earning 'Joey' hitting is more or less the sideline, but hitting gives me the respect to get the better jobs of earning David Susskind Now what else are you doing currently? 'Joey' Currently Shylocking David Susskind How much have you got on the street 'Joey' at this particular moment or somebody else's money. This is what you know, I got about $7 million on the street right now. David Susskind What you're getting what kind of interest? 'Joey' Well we're getting roughly comes out the six and a half to five David Susskind six and a half 'Joey' that comes out to but you figure 120% a year. David Susskind And you always get your money back 'Joey' so far, when I lay down nights. David Susskind And that money isn't your money. Oh, that's the mob money. 'Joey' That's right. But I'm partners on the interest. David Susskind Right now how does that work? You know people that would that need money,And because I got 1 2 3 5 'Joey' I go to the guy whos got the money. I say I got seven customers is what I need. And is it gonna pay us back? He gives me the money I want to put up. And every week I pick up the money. I go meet him and I make back the payments. David Susskind Now does he ever flinch at giving you $7 million? 'Joey' He don't flich at all. He's got me he's got money. He hasn't counted yet. He could fill this place up $100 bills and still look the room for more. David Susskind Do we know this man? 'Joey' You know him, but I won't mention David Susskind his names in the paper a lot. 'Joey' fairly often. David Susskind He gives you 7 million. You loan it. 'Joey' he don't give me $7 million all one time. He gives it to me as I need it David Susskind in bunches. 'Joey' Yeah, he may give me three four or 500,000 David Susskind And you must get that money back to him on an agreed schedule. 'Joey' Yeah If there's any lay downs, he wants to know why if I have any problems I tell you know, generally but I don't have any problems. I handle my own. David Susskind Right and you split the interest. 50/50 Right. Now somebody is late in making a payment. What is your take? 'Joey' Well, I go When I see him, I want to know what the problem is. He gives me a big, you know, David Susskind a big is what 'Joey' interest. Or maybe I got a Why'd he pay me? I mean, if like, say his wife got sick or something like that, I can understand this. Okay, okay, when you straighten out you see what if a guy's trying not the beat me, I'm going to smack his head with a bat David Susskind right, if he gives you an excuse that you can buy. and you give him some time. 'Joey' Yeah, I'll give him all the time that he needs David Susskind And it's strictly up to you. 'Joey' Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I take it, you get a guy that like I said in the guy is the guy is up against the wall. I mean, he's got a lot of bills, all of a sudden that you know, like his old lday might get sick or when the kids get sick as medical coverage, they'll cover these things happen. We understand these things. I mean, we got the same problems. So guys, you know, what can I do is, you know, what do you want? You don't want the guy going on all our people. He said, Okay, you straighten out. You know, when you get back on your feet. He chose me straight now. And you know, you just stop it right there. You don't factor no vigor nothing. You just keep the lawn as is when you get a guy that's out and out to beat you and then you go after him. You get a get a guy who will take 1000 here 1000 thousand every where and find it and then he's gone. Then when you catch up to him, then you do a number one is melon David Susskind You do that with a piece of lead pipe? 'Joey' Sometimes with a Pipe wrapped and loose paper it's called a shlam. Sometimes I use a bat. shlamam, Yeah. Because it's a pipe wrapped in a newspaper. Originally they started with out of Brooklyn and with the old modern corporate law firm. I used to do that. That was that was that was their bit David Susskind And I think you have successive degrees of persuasion. 'Joey' Oh yeah. Well generally you show up you know what a guy and you pull out a cannon you know and then you open it you open up the chamber you know you look you look make sure it's loaded then you put put the chamber but you know you put a revolver close it up stick it back in your pocket. Say listen, I'm gonna talk to you. Yeah, David Susskind but in what contingency in what situation? Would you kill? 'Joey' Oh I wouldn't Kill a customer? David Susskind You would not? 'Joey' So, He can't pay me. What good is he to me then? David Susskind So you slam him then he doesn't pay. 'Joey' I hurt him some more. David Susskind There's a point of hurting where he pays 'Joey' We've got the message. David Susskind Time for another message. We'll be right back |
| 01:42:51 2553.82 |
CUT TO BREAK
|
| 01:43:08 2571.03 |
SLATE CARD - COUNTDOWN CLOCK
|
| 01:43:18 2581.03 |
INTERVIEW CONCLUDES:
David Susskind Do the police know you? 'Joey' Oh yeah. David Susskind Do they know you're a killer? 'Joey' Oh yeah. Of couse. No, you don't underestimate the police. I mean, they got their people they got their performance they know what you're doing. Your bookmaker they know it. you're a hit man they know it. They know who you are. David Susskind Do you pay off the police 'Joey' when I'm book Making sure on when I got a numbers thing going kinda I can operate as I paid them off. David Susskind How does the payoff work? 'Joey' Well it depends on what kind of an operation you got a few bookmaker and you got phones you pay so much per phone. If you got a David Susskind who do you pay? a cop on the beat? 'Joey' no no, no, no no you pay you pay somebody that's in Division. Or you paid somebody to borrough. generally or it's got something most guys go right into the commissioner's office. And then you pay so much per phone. if you have men on the street on a numbers thing you pay so much per man David Susskind How many phones have you had working? 'Joey' Well, biggest office I was ever in we had six phones David Susskind and what were you paying per phone? 'Joey' $2,000 A month per phone David Susskind 2000 A month per phone 'Joey' right David Susskind 12,000 a month? 'Joey' That's correct. David Susskind In cash, 'Joey' C A S H David Susskind delivered to the 'Joey' No guy comes around you know that's why that's that's where that word bag man comes from? Because he's because he carries his little black bag and whatever they owe he sticks in his pocket David Susskind if a raid is coming will they call the head 'Joey' Oh yeah. We'll call them have they pick up one of our men? They let us know. David Susskind Right so the police know all about you 'Joey' Oh sure. David Susskind And they would know all about the 38 murders. 'Joey' I'm pretty sure of the ones that I've done. They just can't prove David Susskind Have you been called in on all the ones you have done 'Joey' I've been called in on 17 besides the one besides the three I was acquitted. David Susskind Did they seem anxious to solve them 'Joey' not really that anxious they will do they harrass you, hassle you for maybe about an hour or two they look you guys got something on me, booked me if not David Susskind Is there a payoff to get out 'Joey' No way, you just pick up and walk away so you guys don't miss it. I call my lawyer David Susskind Joey Why are you doing this television show? 'Joey' Oh, I wrote a book. And I like I want to publicize the book. David Susskind Isn't your life in jeopardy? 'Joey' Suer it is. Thye know who I am, I'm dead. But unlike a lot of guys, I'm not a stool pigeon. I didn't get up before any committees made a name any names and put anybody in the joint? David Susskind And why would you run the risk of getting killed to publicize a book 'Joey' Because I think it's time that the public found out that they and they can't outlaw what people want. I don't care how you try it. You can do everything I have done has stemmed from the fact that it was outlawed to begin with by people. That's why do you think there are so many people in this business because of the money that's there. And this could all be legitimized David Susskind gambling, you're talking about 'Joey' gambling, prostitution, even narcotics, you if you take the hard thing narcotics, which repulses everybody who makes an addict, he makes himself. So now you got an addict. Right? Now, the guy is illegal, because he's illegal. If he sells it is illegal. If a user is illegally possessed, the take the service guy has got to go out and steal in order to get the money to go have it. Now if you legalize narcotics, he goes to a hospital gets a shot. This guy goes to work. You don't have to steal. That's number one. David Susskind You've run narcotics in 'Joey' I've brought them in from Mexico. Yeah. David Susskind How'd you do that? 'Joey' I used to tape them to the rim of a wheel inside the wheel and put the tire back over to bring an eight kilos at a time. David Susskind Did they ever take the wheels off the car? 'Joey' I had the car searched. They pulled the wheel off the car, but they never took the tire off the wheel. Okay, it was the closest I ever come.Then after that I had carte blanche to drive back and forth. Look, I own the place. David Susskind Made a lot of money doing that. 'Joey' I made a hell of a lot of money doing it. David Susskind Why did you quit? 'Joey' Why did I quit? Because it ran out of work before it died David Susskind Why didn't you go into the narcotic business with somebody else? 'Joey' I wasn't that interested David Susskind you were making big money? 'Joey' Yeah, I was doing alright. I don't complain. See, I'm funny. Like, I work I like a guy was working for man. He's dead now. Dragna he was good to me. I worked for him. He was good to me. And he had things going. Everything's fine. When he died. It was a big scramble for who won and who does that and everything. And nobody know which way was up. You know, they're all playing playing a game, you know, about what their end was going to be in what your room was going to be. And the way they work it is it should have won yet. Whatever stuck to the ceiling was yours. And I need these guys. David Susskind When Dragna died, what did you do? 'Joey' I moved around a while I had some money and I wasn't really interested. Then I did a few odds and ends. And then I had a couple of contracts that I took care of. David Susskind Hijacking 'Joey' No wasn't I Hijacking and I had no I had a couple of hit contracts that he did. And the insurance David Susskind contract is 20,000 A year 20,000 A shot 20,000 A shot and you've done 35 shots correct professional? 'Joey' Well, roughly. I mean, it wasn't always 20 You know, 20,000 went up you know as time went by David Susskind go up depending on how important the man 'Joey' no it went up and depending on what the price was, you know, like, it started out like for a while for a long time. The price was 10 grand. And the price or one day I turned around the price is double. David Susskind You do hits today. 'Joey' If the Price is right? Yeah. David Susskind And what else skyjacking 'Joey' No no sky Jack. Jack, it's not my life out. hiJack. hijacking. yeah, I've hijack some trucks. had merchandise I could dispose of very quickly David Susskind and you're into pornographic pornography here. You're selling movies. 'Joey' Yeah. Yeah, there's a market for number one thing, my friend. And I want without you. There's no me.And by you, I don't mean you, per se. I mean you the public. Because the public didn't want it. We couldn't sell it.The public didn't want to make a bet we couldn't book the public than one character. We couldn't sell it. The public didn't want to borrow money, we couldn't lend it. David Susskind And also you couldn't do any of this without the act of cooperation. The police, 'Joey' correct and politicians. What I am saying is this, a lot of the things that we are into, can be legalized. And the money derived from this could all but eliminate all your sales taxes. And not only that, but you could build your schools and your hospitals and your roads and you don't have enough money left over to take care of all the people that are on welfare. You have any idea of the kind of money I'm talking about? The only idea was bet in this city. alone every year. David Susskind How much 'Joey' $20 billion a year is bet in this city. Now you got to figure we keep at least 15% of that. David Susskind How do you know these figures? H 'Joey' Hey I've had offices I've been in offices. I used to I show you guys they think not about betting 5, 10 $1,000 at a ballgame. 1000 across on a horse and they get the money right I can show I can break it down from your $2 bet at a $10,000 better. This city is full of them and every city is full of them. Remember one thing about a gamble. He will go anywhere to have his game. You can you can write laws against it. They've done it. What does it proved? David Susskind You gamble? 'Joey' Sure I do. I'm a big gamble anybody? I blow most of my money again but I enjoy gambling. David Susskind Do you take drugs? 'Joey' Nope. Never take them drug in my life. David Susskind You have any other bad habit besides gambling and killing 'Joey' broads David Susskind Broads? You say in your book that women find you irresistible 'Joey' no I didn't say they find David Susskind They find you sexually very attractive 'Joey' they find they find the fact that what I do attractive David Susskind you tell them what you do 'Joey' no like I like I'll give you an example. At a party one time if they had been acquitted. I was introduced to this girl who will certainly come from one of your better families. Right? She couldn't wait to jump into bed with me David Susskind because you were a killer 'Joey' That's correct. David Susskind That's somehow allured her 'Joey' yeah to her David Susskind it was she just stunning exception. or a lot of women, 'Joey' no when broads find that you deal in violence and control violence, as I call it. The fact that they know that you've taken a life or you they know that you do this or you have no compunction about this. It has a strange fascination. Don't ask me what it is. I don't know. David Susskind How long does the fascination last? 'Joey' I don't know but what you two or three times and all of a sudden they look up they say what the hell am I David Susskind Okay, now you're on the show. And you run into serious danger with your life. 'Joey' Well, I'm hoping that with a little luck, I won't I won't get lucky. David Susskind Why is it worth the candle just to sell some copies of your book 'Joey' No, it's not that. To me. It's worth it. What I want to do is I want to I think it's time that we came out of the closet. I think it's time that I'm sick and tired of seeing headlines of the mob this the mob that because everything we do can be legitimate. And I think it's time that it was David Susskind wise to legitimized you'd be out of business. 'Joey' Yeah I would really be out of business. I could Always find something in the industry to do because it would be legitimate. But you can't let the politicians have it. I think it's time that the public got the benefit out of it. The public. The public is the biggest suckers that ever lived. You run the rod every day up one side and down the other by the legitimate man by us on a we and then we give them a better break. David Susskind You're very well organized 'Joey' extremely with one thing we don't have any union problems. We don't really have to worry about retirement dues. pensions, David Susskind no strikes 'Joey' no strikes. well more efficiently than any organization you can think of. David Susskind You think you're better organized and General Motors. 'Joey' Hell yes. David Susskind Federal Government 'Joey' right. We don't have no waste. We don't have we don't we don't type things up in triplicate. David Susskind you've scored one there. I'll be right back in one minute. |
| 01:53:59 3222.5 |
CUT TO BREAK
|
| 01:54:01 3224.37 |
END REEL
|
Jump to this point
