NT-3341

WNET

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Show opener.

Host Robert Lipsyte in the studio - he talks about a new needle program that Mayor Dinkins of New York City introduced where drug abusers may exchange their used needles for sterile ones. This caused controversy and outrage.

Hands placing used needle in big red Sharps container. Man handing out clean needle states, "don't share anything".

Slate: David Dinkins called needle exchange a "surrender" to drug abuse.

Cartoon depicting black man holding bow, his arrow shot through the middle of a needle and landing on the bullseye - thought bubble reads "This is the safest way to shoot drugs". Small box reeds "don't share needles"

Close up - hands and arms only - addicts sharing same needle. Needle going into syringe, hand belting wrist, shooting up and passing needle to next guy.

Cartoon, images of two Black guys talking with each other - thought bubbles: Why didn't you bring your own Ric?
Well, if they were legal I might have one.

Talking head young white gay man, Richard Ellovich, walking down the street carrying large red Sharps container.

Cartoon image of large container of Bleach and other bottles - shadow of two people and thought bubble states, "If you're gonna shoot up, you have to learn how to clean your needles."

Public service announcement - Man in superman costume with a large B and a Bleach container head standing with New York City skyline in bkgd, he states "if you gotta use the drugs you gotta use the jug"- close up as he holds up a large white gallon of bleach

Ellovich on the street setting up table and hanging a Needle Exchange poster on the wall getting ready to push the clean needle and needle exchange program to passers by in the 'hood.

Talking head angry and emotional black male with sunglasses talking with unseen interviewer about being opposed to the needle exchange program and does not want it in his community

Officer handcuffing white male wearing Aids Brigade t shirt

Ellovich holding Sharps container talking with unknown unseen drug addict telling him to look for them and if he brings them dirty needles they'll give him clean "works". Unseen druggie hold up plastic bag with clean "works" and states, "You people are saving lives".

INSERT OFF-SITE INTERVIEW - Charles Rangel

Charles Rangel
I am against needles for drug addicts and for treatment for people who are addicted to drugs. And I get outrage when people who have the ability to provide a real service for those people who have this disease. Instead of talking about providing services, and I'm talking about the former mayor, the city of New York, was anxious to develop a program to give away needles, but never talked about starting a city program to give treatment.

Robert Lipsyte
Well, I mean, giving out needles seems cheap. treatment is very expensive. Why couldn't that be a first step towards at least cutting back on on AIDS?

Charles Rangel
Well, I don't know whether there's any medical proof that giving away clean needles cut out on AIDS. I don't know whether or not there's evidence that those who use needles transfer the needles around no matter how many they have

Robert Lipsyte
if you were satisfied with the scientific evidence, would you still be against giving them needles?

Charles Rangel
If I thought that just passing out needles would reduce the the spread of AIDS? How can I be against it? I was I would vigorously be supporting a treatment programs as well, just to say that we want to cut out a quicker death. Because AIDS is terminal, as opposed to our prolonging death. Which drug abuse obviously is I would not feel comfortable. And just giving little extensions to drug addiction.

Robert Lipsyte
Well, are you leading us to believe that giving out free needles takes us somewhere else leads us to something else?

Charles Rangel
I'm saying there is a concept. Yeah. That if you give a person a part of the works, that you are participating in supporting their habit, I don't see how you get away from that. Suppose the AIDS virus was spread because of the impurity in the heroin then the question would be would you support a given clean heroin and in any case, you're violating the law, someone has to make a judgement. as to which is the least dangerous, the least harmful to the general society?

Robert Lipsyte
It seems almost monolithically that the African American political leadership has been against The needle program, is there some racial component to this?

Charles Rangel
Well, it's just as racial when you take a look and see who's in our jails. And you would find that they African American and Hispanic, if you take a look and see where our homeless, the overwhelming them the jobless overwhelming the homeless, overwhelmingly African American and Hispanic. And so when you take a look at all of the problems that that the hopeless people have, and instead of coming up with a program, you are prepared, with Lily, white government hands to give as a partial solution to the problem, a clean needle, it's outrageous.

Robert Lipsyte
Don't you think it's worth a chance even to save a few lives?

Charles Rangel
I would think that if you really want a life saving business, that you would be involved in talking about treatment, wouldn't you? I mean, if we want to talk about saving lives, who would be involved with saving the lives a guy that wants to wrestle the gun from you from killing yourself, or the fellas passing out guns to you? I mean, I'm the guy that says I want to stop people from using needles. I'm the one talking about saving lives.

INTERVIEW

Robert Lipsyte:
you can help me with this racial component, which is not really clear, Mr. Bramble, you are one of the very few black people whom we've interviewed on this subject. Who is in favor of the needle exchange program? Why? And is there something else going on here politically, or racially that we don't quite have a grasp on?

Kenneth Brambill
Well, let me approach this from a different angle. I was born and raised in Harlem. Throughout my growing up in Harlem drugs were available to me every day with monotonous regularity. There was no point four hour period when I couldn't obtain drugs if I wanted it. There was another problem with death due to disease from substance abuse during that time. In the mid 60s, people were dying from heroin overdoses in significant numbers. It was a big campaign issue. And people were alarmed because it seemed as if it was only when the problem moved out into the affluent suburbs, that the government took this issue in hand, and decided to start experimental programs. They started experimental methadone maintenance, the number of people who died from heroin overdoses decreased dramatically. Then, in the 1980s, another problem happened coincidentally, two things happen at the same time. There was a glut on the market of cocaine, the market became saturated with it. There also was a retrovirus that was coursing through our society. And it was Bloodborne. It seems as if the addicts who use the cocaine that was now much less expensive, and more accessible, decided to use it. Many were in treatment programs. So as Associate Director of a program, I can tell you, that many of the people who recreationally had been using cocaine to the to the extent of about 10%, rose to about 30 or 40%. It was predicted at that time that many of these people were going to be candidates to catch AIDS. And it was at that time that I got together with several people and made a recommendation that we do something before the predictions came true. And the recommendation was that we appeal to the government to not make this disease. Catch people unawares, put out the hypodermic syringes put out a non reusable hypodermic syringe, asked munitions makers to come up with this. Give people condoms, give people whatever is necessary. Do not limit this disease to people who hear to four had been abusing a substance that caused illness but not death. It seems as if no one has heard out cry. There has been no experimental treatment for heroin addicts, or for cocaine addicts who use needles.

Robert Lipsyte
Mr. Brambill, let me ask you why do you think that the black leadership in this city, knowing just what you've told us, I would assume, does not want clean needles given to drug addicts?

Kenneth Brambill
I can't fathom it.

Robert Lipsyte
Let's in that case, let's ask somebody who might try to answer that question. Dr. Wade, you're involved? Why?

Dr Mark Wade
Sure. Let me explain how we got involved with this process. When the black leadership Commissioner needs became aware that a needle exchange program was about to come onto the scene, meaning that we were not involved in any of the preliminary discussions about whether it should where it should how it should. We, as a first reaction, invited the Commissioner of Health as well as Dr. Beny Primm, to come to a full commission meeting to explain both sides of the issue. Dr. Joseph's being for it being his program and Dr. Primm against, we entertain those discussions, followed up by getting a copy of the protocol, and doing a 10 page critique in writing, which we submit it to New York City Department of Health and to the state. We we got a response from the Commissioner of Health that the program was going to go forth anyway, even though we unanimously were opposed to it, and documented our opposition on all fronts in writing. We followed up by by arranging a meeting with the State Health Commissioner,

Robert Lipsyte
But the first line of defense

Kenneth Brambill
is to deal with the person in front of you.

Robert Lipsyte
If you were satisfied scientifically that you know, it was working, a needle exchange program was working was cutting down on the spread of AIDS, would you then, you know, step back from your moral position,

Dr Mark Wade
it would give a little more room for debate. But I don't think we would step back. And the reason being that the message that comes across to families, and most importantly to children, and when you look at the increase in drug usage among adolescent children, we know that that is the area we can concentrate on and make a real difference in the perpetuation of this disease, you cannot give a double message. Anytime you

Robert Lipsyte
Let me interrupt you, let me interrupt you because there is a perception and I want to know whether you think it's fair, that you are sacrificing a certain number of people sacrificing their lives on the short term. For what you see as longer term gains to society. Is that fair?

Dr Mark Wade
That's not fair. Because by not supporting a needle exchange program, we give consistency to a message. And then and then we're able to turn around and rally support for those measures in a way that we have not done to date, that are necessary to really affect drug abuse and the spread of AIDS, we seem to have been caught up in this syndrome, that there's nothing else we can do is no way we can turn around the drug epidemics. We throw up our hands, and that's it. But that is not the case. When you look at any issue in this country, country, be it civil rights, be it Vietnam via taxes. When the community says enough is enough, they demand and therefore get results. Unfortunately, we haven't gotten to that point.

Robert Lipsyte
Let me ask Yolanda that because the perception that perception is the community is finally getting tough, and is willing to take a hit in order to really finally clean itself up. Is that fair

Unknown Speaker
The community does not give a hell about junkies, about prostitutes about minorities issues in general, with the community itself, the minority is going to have to do it. I could speak for the Hispanic community is hard, getting them motivated and getting them, you know, ready to go hit the streets hit the politicians, we have to do a lot of organizing before that happens. I see that we need an emergency measured here in New York, we're dealing with a quarter of a million IV drug users, hundreds of 1000s of crack users, hundreds of 1000s of women who are leaving their families, and are addicted to crack and are out in the streets engaging in over 100 sexual acts per week to pay for that crack in through crack sexually. They're getting infected with HIV. I see older people turning to crack Now, many in many of our neighborhoods. So the problem just keeps escalating. We don't have time to wait, we've had a decade to put drug treatment in place. Not nothing has happened. We have not had a new program in New York State in since 1972. What are we talking about? If tomorrow, you say we could have all these programs in place, then maybe we don't need a needle exchange program. But until that happens, I don't see any way out of this on an emergency type of basis and it has worked.

Robert Lipsyte
Do you see it as an emergency type? I mean, if you see you have all these treatments, were in place, we wouldn't need needle exchange.

Kenneth Brambill
Absolutely. I'm in favor of treatment. But even if you do have treatment, you must realize that people in treatment can spread disease still, I believe people in treatment probably accounted for some of the relapses and some of the AIDS infection that is out there. It's a chronically relapsing condition. The problem is the doses of cocaine and heroin are not out there. The corresponding hypodermic syringes are not. It is very lopsided and and ludicrous, I believe

Dr Mark Wade
Can I interupt for one second you you you gave a prelude that if we were sure that clean needles would reduce the spread of AIDS, what we support, important to mention is that this needle exchange program, which was based on studies done in Holland, the Holland studies state, which was incorporated in the New York City protocol, that there is no evidence that the distribution of clean needles decreases the spread of AIDS, no evidence, so we don't even have that that material.

Robert Lipsyte
Because Yolanda has pointed out on other shows that that there has been success with the program. And there was a perception in New York City that the pilot program here was doomed to fail, it was in a municipal building was very difficult to get to your your feeling that

Kenneth Brambill
I would like to speak to another issue. We were talking about children, I would predict that very soon, we're going to have children who are survivors with AIDS, who are going to be approaching puberty, who are going to be African American, and Hispanic, who are going to be very sensitive, who are going to want answers to what we their parents were doing, when this epidemic was spreading. And I personally feel responsible, as I watch this situation evolve, that I don't have an answer for these children. I can't tell them well, you mustn't have sex until there's a cure for this disease. Because back in the in the years when we figured it was very important to have this treatment, your people and my people decided against it. Therefore people with means health professionals who used injectable drugs did not have to fray face this, but you children do. And now you're confronted with the possibility of passing along this disease to another generation if it does, in fact become a chronic disease. And I was there doing nothing or oppose. I can't be in that position.

Robert Lipsyte
We'll have to answer to the future and we'll have to talk about this some more Kenneth Brambill Dr. Mark Wade. Yolanda Serrano, thanks so very much for being with us.

Talkback envelope with address and stamp. Phone number overlay a handheld rotary speaker and stack of envelopes.

Show credits over graphics

Reel end.