Historic Films Stock Footage Archive: NT-3191

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01:01:51 111.66	Title Slate: The Eleventh Hour #191. Whitney biennial. Rec: 5/3/89. Dir: Andrew Wilk
01:02:03 123.77	Blank
01:02:11 131.61	Funding by Announcer. Charitable orgs overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
01:02:24 144.92	Show opener
01:02:44 164.67	Show opens to artist, Kenny Scharf working on a very colorful painting. Host Robert Lipsyte talking with Kenny as he paints. Scharf states that although you'd have to discuss the value of the painting he's working on it would be estimated at between $10k - $20k.
01:03:32 212.08	Host Lipsyte announces guests coming up on the program tonight and cuts away to an off site segment, the Whitney Museum's 1989 Biennial Event.
01:03:42 222.55	Montage of contemporary art exhibits at the Whitney Museum 1989 Biennial.
01:04:14 254.7	Two women, old and young, wearing very large hats walking around in the Whitney Museum and looking at exhibits during the Biennial
01:04:20 260.57	Patrons at the biennial observing the art on display - man points out a strange exhibit looks like green styrofoam, and people looking at a large three dimensional wall piece made from colorful yarn with dolls
01:04:36 276.89	Exhibit hanging on the wall - broken window panes from the South Bronx.
01:04:41 281.37	A criss-crossed fence, patrons observing the piece. Others in bkgd walking through museum
01:04:51 291.62	People mingling and observing an installation that looks very much like a giant chocolate cake or a mud pie.
01:04:59 299.73	Talking head couple talking with unseen unknown interviewer about the strange "chocolate cake" exhibit
01:05:05 305.42	Meg Webster, "Chocolate Cake" Artist talking with unseen interviewer about her inspiration - the natural elements of the environment and material of the earth - the dirt from her backyard.
01:05:13 313.84	Lady in bright red coat and others walking across the "chocolate cake" exhibit.
01:05:22 322.25	"But is it Art? collage over background of various colorful prints.
01:05:29 328.98	Pan a series of same-sized black frames of just simple various patterns to wide shot of the exhibit taking up two entire walls.
01:05:40 340.17	Pan up on a gigantic wooden installation composed of various shapes and shades of wood.
01:05:44 344.37	An amusing ceramic sculpture of a woman with long brown curly hair and holding a piglet.
01:05:51 351.58	z'in on an oversized yellow glass globe - stated to look like a urine sample by unseen announcer.
01:05:53 353.89	A montage of the various works at the Biennial - paintings, sculptures
01:05:56 356.37	close up shots on an installation of stuffed animals and dolls using pieces of wood and yarn.
01:06:13 373.08	Artist Jeff Koons standing next to sculpture of woman holding a pig talking with unseen unknown interviewer states he thinks "the 1989 Biennial has a lot of diversity to it, certain aspects have a very youthful almost a juvenile feel to it.." Koons goes on to talk about what people think of his work (aspects of vulgarity and morality).
01:06:31 391.52	Wide shot, people in the museum walking around, large glazed porcelain sculpture of a blonde woman holding a Pink Panther - "Pink Panther" by Jeff Koons 1988. Lady with curly dark hair talking with unseen interviewer about how fun it is, the amusement park ceramic statues giving her a good feeling.
01:06:44 404.44	Koons talking with interviewer about his "Pink Panther" sculpture.
01:07:20 440.18	In the studio with various paintings set up around the room, Robert Lipsyte introduces guests: Richard Armstrong, Artist, Scuptor; Ivan Karp, Gallery owner.
01:07:37 457.09	INTERVIEW Richard Lipsyte: there are something like 60,000 artists in New York and 200,000, perhaps in the country, and there are 76 in the Whitney Biennial, is there a common thread? Is there. One thing in the selection process? I mean, I'm almost asking why are these particular people there? Richard Armstrong Well, we chose them because we thought they were the most representative of the widest spectrum of art making that was going on in the country, with a special prejudice towards incorporating people who hadn't been seen at our museum previously, which meant that typically it was a younger set of artists. Robert Lipsyte Now, when we talk about people who haven't been seen, people also talk about the biennial as having a passion for the now for the new for the immediate. Richard Armstrong Well, it's meant to be a survey the last two years. So that's an inevitable result of that kind of focus. Robert Lipsyte Ivan, is that any way to run a museum? Ivan Karp Well, they're true, they're free to run it the way they want to, but it's largely an ineffectual kind of operation, and particularly the Biennale is really a narrow, shabby survey of what's going on in the arts, because the curious just really not aware of what's happening. And let's go beyond that. The most important thing and putting a show like that together is basically good judgment. Robert Lipsyte let me stop you for just a moment. And then of course, you can go on in terms of you're a gallery owner, and to clear up any thought of sour grapes. Are any of your artists at the Whitney Ivan Karp There are no sour grapes, we're very happy with our operation. We're happy breed. I have a large facility downtown. We do 45 shows a year we have a large audience, and we're quite successful. But for statistics, we've done about 900 shows in the last 20 years. And we've had two artists included in Bienalle in 20 years 900 exhibitions. Robert Lipsyte Does that does that lead you to believe that they're out of touch? Or perhaps Ivan Karp there's no question that are out of touch because what they show from the evidence of what we see there, it's simply a failure of judgment. Robert Lipsyte Well, I mean, there's 60,000 artists in New York and I guess a lot of people feel that they're failures of judgment in terms of the things that you pick, but I think the thing that concerns people is is the idea that there's something insider trading ish about art Ivan Karp Well of course all communities, the the arts, music and poetry and theatre. It's political people know each other and they have responsibilities to each other. And that's all together that it should be that way. But this is so, so elaborately political, and it's so responsive to certain currents in the art world and certain personalities. And you can pretty much anticipate what's going to be shown there. This is the first Bienalle I've been to and yes, because I know exactly we're going to show two years from now. Robert Lipsyte Well, you're you're you certainly have heard a lot of criticism. What's your response to this? Richard Armstrong Well, the good thing about the exhibition is that the fact that it focuses on the art of the last two years means that the information is basically undigested. So it's absolutely predictable that everyone will have a different opinion. And everyone feels strongly about what he or she knows that the previous two years Robert Lipsyte Now in terms of you know, whether you're right or not, that's kind of irrelevant. I mean, there's no right or wrong here. As far as you're concerned, you've decided what is representative of two years, two years from now, if we never hear again, from any of those 76, does that matter? Richard Armstrong It doesn't invalidate what happened two years prior, it matters. But it doesn't invalidate the previous show. Robert Lipsyte Because you're only concerned with the previous two years. Richard Armstrong Well we hope we're choosing people who because of the force of their vision and work habits, etc, will be factors in the art world. And I think if you look at the history of the show the last 15 years, certainly people who are commonly agreed upon to be prominent contributors to the culture are repeatedly featured in the exhibition. So it does typically bring to the fore people at an often early in their careers who become important figures later. Robert Lipsyte But say, a Kenny Scharf, who we saw at the top of the show, who has, you know, one of the hits of 1985 is quite, not quite so prominent anymore. Richard Armstrong Well, he's probably not as possibly not as prominent as he was. But that's a function of people's appetite for novelty. I mean, the work continues to be interesting, and he attracts a certain kind of following and it certainly Robert Lipsyte so novelty is really a keyword novel basically
01:12:07 727	INTERBVIEW CONTINUES: Richard Armstrong Novelty is a key word in the exhibition. Yeah. And people's impression of the exhibition. Robert Lipsyte I'm and why can't you accept that as just kind of new and it's novel, and maybe it's not important Ivan Karp novelty is and pejorative, and remains innovation is what he means artists with imagination, artists who bring something a way of a fresh vision to things, much stuff is pretty damn stale. And much of it is truly ineffective. I mean, there are some words Robert Lipsyte what does that mean ineffective, Ivan Karp it doesn't have a convincing presence. That's what art has to have. Take the works. As one example, they worked by Bryce Martin, who has an illustrious career and an artist of illustrious reputation. His work there, if the curators is walked into a studio, by an artist with another name, who worked like that they wouldn't even consider that work. It's just absolutely in transition. It's an effectual it should be there. Robert Lipsyte Do you think it's art? Ivan Karp it has intimations of presence. That is, there's a certain amount of skillfulness because the artist is a poet, you know, some gestures that have a little content, but for the most part, it shouldn't be in shrine in a museum. It just doesn't belong there. Robert Lipsyte This this is a kind of a biannual bashing. I mean, it seems to be almost a sport in New York. Why do you think that is? Richard Armstrong Well, New Yorkers tend to be experts, and many of them think they're experts about many things. And this is one of the opportunities they have to prove that to their friends and neighbors. I was misunderstood with the idea of novelty, it's not the artist. responsibility or taste for novelty that I'm talking about. It's the audience's giant greedy appetite for novelty. That's sort of scars, perceptions of the exhibition Robert Lipsyte scars, perceptions, or creates the exhibition. Richard Armstrong Well, it it inflates in a twisted way, I think. Robert Lipsyte Would you think that maybe too much is made of the show that it's less important than its critics would say? Richard Armstrong Well it's an important exhibition. But to think that, as you mentioned earlier, 76 artists could completely represent what's going on in American art as false in itself. And so it's a very small Salang and really has a very limited capacity, both spatially in other ways to Robert Lipsyte It launches the careers of some artists, and in a sense, informs at least the public's perception of art for some time to come afterwards. So I mean, you do have a responsibility. Richard Armstrong Oh, we take it seriously. I'm just saying it's probably not as big and comprehensive as it could be or might be, and it's not as large as salon, as the scene really requires. Robert Lipsyte Well, why does someone like Ivan Karp get so angry about it? I mean, Ivan Karp I'm troubled about it. Richard Armstrong I don't think he's that angry. Ivan Karp No, I've been through this. I'm 35 years in this activity. We're used to that kind of thing Robert Lipsyte would you cancel that if you could Ivan Karp would i cancel what Robert Lipsyte the the Whitney show the biennial Ivan Karp I wouldn't cancel the idea of the show? I think it's a worthy endeavor is probably the most viewed but let's see, let's get out to the grid of this. The curators who are chosen to make this exhibition are never given a vision perception test. They qualify because they have good art history credentials. They're simply not qualified to judge the merits of contemporary art. Robert Lipsyte Wait a minute, you're saying that that Mr. arm was not qualified, nice person I hate to make you defend yourself, but I wish you would. Richard Armstrong Well, I've spent not 35 years but 15 years looking at many, many painters and sculptors written several catalogs, assembled many exhibitions, I think many people would say I am qualified to Robert Lipsyte How'd you get the job. Richard Armstrong I applied for it. Robert Lipsyte When was that? Richard Armstrong Well, I went through a training program at the Whitney Museum in 1973. I worked there for two more years after that, lived in California for six years of work there. And then I came back in 1981. Robert Lipsyte You know, one of the things I guess that troubles us from the outside, I'm so used to insider trading, and in so many fields, is that I guess the Board of Directors of the Whitney are people who collect art, I guess, some of the painters that are hung in the Whitney that are hung in your show, may or may not be purchased or already owned, Ivan Karp There are a lot of connective elements that of course it says social and it's political. And if that's the way it should be, every community has its Robert Lipsyte That's the way it should be. Ivan Karp Well, it has to be that way. There's no way no avoiding it. There's going to be interpersonal relationships between curators and artists and collectors and dealers. So he's not Robert Lipsyte You're not troubled by the idea of the show. You're not troubled by the insider trading. Show. What bothers you is that you don't think that Mr. Armstrong have have the right to make the choices that they made Ivan Karp They are just simply not qualified. Just you can't learn to look at art. It's a blessing of nature, if some people have the chemical compound, yeah. Which allows them to perceive things not always nice people. They're not always smart people that are often intelligent. They may not even be art history, historians, Robert Lipsyte we don't have very much time left. But based on on this year's show what you've seen there, do you have any feeling of where things are going in art right now? Richard Armstrong It's hard to tell exactly from the exhibition, but there's definitely a return to ideas that occupied people in the early 70s. About sort of post minimal ideas, things that are more handmade, and sculpture certainly has taken a direction that makes it look like people are very concerned with thing the responsibility of making the art object. Robert Lipsyte Okay thank you very much. Curator Richard Armstrong, gallery owner, curmudgeon, Ivan Karp, thank you very much for being with us.
01:17:19 1039.27	Interview concludes, Lipsyte thanks Armstrong and Karp.
01:17:41 1061.32	Host Lipsyte in the studio and surrounded by many paintings introduces next guests, Kenny Scharf, Well-Known Contemporary Artist; Jeff Shollette, Artist (Political).
01:18:01 1081.53	INTERVIEW Robert Lipsyte: in 1985, when you were the darling of the Whitney Biennial, did that change your life? Did your price go up? Did I get invited to better parties drink with a better crowd? What happened? Kenny Scharf Well, I'm not sure if the the rate of the parties or the prices go as far as the biennial went, but it was important to me, and I guess it changed my life. I'm not sure exactly how but Robert Lipsyte was your feeling that you and the other artists in the exhibition that year? Were on the cutting edge of art of that time? Kenny Scharf Is it my feeling that? Yeah. Robert Lipsyte Did you feel that you guys were, you know, really out there? Kenny Scharf Well, I had been doing what I did in 85 for a few years. So it wasn't so brand new to me, but to the public. It obviously was Robert Lipsyte Well and of course you were anointed, then by the Whitney, who said you were you? Greg, you you were at the show in 85. You remember seeing? Did you feel that that particular group of artists were the cutting edge of art of their time? Greg Sholette Well, I'm not sure if what cutting edge really means in this case? I mean, I think that the show is it appears to be a kind of neutral context for what happens to be going on at that time in the art world Robert Lipsyte by neutral neutral context. Sounds kind of negative to me. Greg Sholette Well, I don't think we should single out the Whitney Biennial, as you know, one really bad situation. I think you have to understand the art is in industry. And the Biennial is a trade show, just like a lot of large international shows are and in a trade show. It's a kind of trade shows a kind of boutique and people go there to see what has been fashionable and what's also a good investment know what might be a good investment. Robert Lipsyte Well, that's it that's a helpful way of framing it to look at it in really commercial terms. Greg Sholette Well, that's essentially it is a business. Yeah. I think where the confusion comes in, is that it tends to come off as if it were dealing with issues of, say, philosophy or ethics, or metaphysics. And you're supposed to go there and come away with some change of perception. When in effect, I mean, the essence of it is a business. And well, Robert Lipsyte if indeed following that line of thought, if indeed that's the case, then the selection of those artists is also a commercial statement. Of course, it is. Yeah. And that we really can't trust Richard Armstrong, or anybody who talks about, you know, philosophy or perception or innovation. Greg Sholette I would say the general public should I think that if you go to the show, and you come away with some other experience about what you saw, that's terrific. But I think most people go away scratching their heads quite a bit about what they saw. I don't think a lot of the work relates to the common person's experience of what what life is, Robert Lipsyte 20:55 Kenny you you're not and you agree with that? Kenny Scharf It's I haven't seen this biennial yet. But I would say, art in museums, to a certain extent, doesn't relate to the general public. No, I don't think so. Robert Lipsyte And and did you feel in your celebration in 1985, you felt a little cynical about it, in retrospect, Kenny Scharf cynical about what? Robert Lipsyte cynical in the sense that, you know, you were talked about in 85, as if you were fresh and new and different. You've been doing the same thing for years. They just decided in 85. You were fresh and new and different. And now it's four years later, and you're a better artist. And yet, flags aren't being waved quite as wildly. Kenny Scharf Well, that's fine with me. I didn't. I really wasn't quite prepared for those flags at that moment. And now that the flags aren't being, you know, waived so high, you know, I'm doing my work. And I'm, I'm happy about it. You know, I don't I don't need to have the flags waved at me all the time. Robert Lipsyte Did you our price jumped substantially after your success in 85? Kenny Scharf substantially? No. Robert Lipsyte There wasn't much change. Kenny Scharf I think they did rise. But I think they rose over a period of time he anyway. I mean, Robert Lipsyte do you know how you got into the Whitney that year? Did you lobby did you deal or talk to somebody? Did it just happen to somebody just reach out and say, Hey, this is excute? Kenny Scharf Well, I think I had been in the public eye for probably a couple years at that point. And I think maybe I'm hoping it was undeniably the decision that they had to include me. And since I was so out there, you know, I was showing a lot. I had been doing stuff all around and people, you know, knew it. It hadn't been in Bienalle yet. So I would hope that's why I was in it. I haven't if there was another way I was in it. I'm not aware of it. Robert Lipsyte Greg, you've not been in the Bienalle? What does that tell you about you? Greg Sholette Well, either I don't rate with the kind of work that they're looking for. It doesn't it doesn't have a strong impact. If I was to be invited, I'd probably agree to it at this point. My
01:23:22 1402.87	INTERVIEw CONTINUES: Robert Lipsyte you would agree to it Greg Sholette probably would, Robert Lipsyte for commercial reasons, Greg Sholette probably for commercial reasons. Ultimately, I mean, I'm not going to take the high road and say, you know, I wouldn't have anything to do with that kind of thing. I think that's it's not reasonable in this context. But I think I would hope that I would interject a question about, you know, what it is that the Whitney is presenting, or any venue like that is presenting in the show, and I didn't see that in the show this year at all. Robert Lipsyte But if you were, if you were kept, if you were drafted, you know, you wouldn't say to yourself, Well, I'm even a better artists than I thought I was. Greg Sholette I'm sure it would be a boost of my ego Robert Lipsyte would be boost to your ego, and certainly would it would be a boost your bank account? Greg Sholette Perhaps. I mean, I don't I don't know how those things function. Really. I've not been involved in the commercial end of the business very much. So I don't know. Robert Lipsyte Well as a writer, it's always in the back of my mind, you know, I look at the junk on the bestseller list. And I say, well, someday, you know, sure. I'm going to I'm going to write a piece of trash too. And I know it's not going to happen, and I'm not going to be able to but on the other hand, you as an artist, could you say, Well, I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to be in the 1991 show. I'm going to do something nutsy Greg Sholette I suppose you could specifically strategize to get into a show if you really wanted to. I'm not sure that would work in the Biennial, but maybe you could do that. I work as you know, doing something totally different. I make props for television, for example, as a business for money. Yeah. And so I mean, that's how I sustain myself. I don't count on my art as a means of investment, you know, finance. Robert Lipsyte Because one of the things that that's kind of troubling for maybe a nieve Like me, is, you know, in terms of what is art show like this seems to treat our artists, as one would treat sports figures or rock and roll series. I mean, in 1985, you were Rookie of the Year in the, in the in the Whitney League, in a sense, is that what art should be about? Kenny Scharf I don't think that's what art should be about. Greg Sholette How do you feel? I mean, you're not a naive person. I'm sure like, you know, even though you express your I mean, what is your feeling about the Whitney, show yourself? Did you see the show? Robert Lipsyte Yes, I did. Yeah. And I thought most of it was dismissible. Some of the things I thought were kind of cute. All the insides of envelopes, you know, but that was one joke. 10,000 green plastic like hand grenade fingers on a field? was one joke yet more Sherry Levine Greg Sholette Did you see the film in video parks at all? Because there's no interesting section Robert Lipsyte I didn't I look strictly at the paintings, I think they were called pieces that I really liked the work yes to work. There was the violin the tree that became Deborah. Right? Like that. But I'm as confused as everybody else in terms of what is art. And I guess we always look to the Richard Armstrong's to tell us Greg Sholette Why should you be confused about what art is? Isn't that part of our everyday? Shouldn't it be part of everyday experience of culture? I mean, why should it be this sort of mystical thing that we don't understand? And I don't think that Whitney addresses that, but neither do other venues. I mean, did you know that Whitney is not alone in that problem? Kenny's work is accessible for the most we're here. He's done a painting Robert Lipsyte Kenny's work is right out the two of you or one behind each of your head. And Greg's work, of course, is kind of off. Kenny's right ear. I wouldn't leave home without it. Greg Sholette The Amazon destruction exam. Amazon forest. Yeah, right. We're talking about artists who had nothing to do with the content of the work. It's the next part of the problem. I think that we tend to look at the institution and not talk about what people are trying to convey. Robert Lipsyte We don't have very much time left, maybe, maybe you could you kind of put it in a larger context. But maybe the Whitney really isn't that important? Greg Sholette Well, it's certainly important within the investment structure of the art world, in the fashion structure, the art world, absolutely, very powerful institution, whether it has an impact in larger culture. That's debatable how much of a trickle down effect it really is from something called high art. I don't think it represents what's going on in the art world at this time, not simply because the curators have bad taste, but because there's a lot of other kinds of things going on among women artists among black artists that didn't get into the show. Robert Lipsyte But as Kenny would tell us, it's good to have been there. Right. Kenny Scharf That was happy to be there. Yeah. Robert Lipsyte Well, Kenny Scharf Greg Sholette. Thanks so very much. This is the 11th hour, I'm Robert Lipsyte.
01:28:00 1680.93	Interview concludes, Lipsyte thanks Shollette and Scharf.
01:28:04 1683.97	Lipsyte announces the show and himself. Shoe Ends.
01:28:11 1691.86	Credits over show graphics.
01:28:43 1723.82	Funding by Announcer. Charitable orgs overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
01:28:57 1737.34	Reel End.